Noth African sword

[blue lander]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams blue lander... Looks OK to me! Some may be forgiven for thinking this is a snapped sword ... at both ends... but have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3985 Oh I see you have already spotted that ... Nice... In particular I think #7 by Jim McDougall is worthy of note. I looked up the reference to Sandiago Cross and that was interesting.

It's so interesting that both of these swords have very similar markings, both were cut down in virtually the same configuration, and then his ends up heavily worn but in a beautiful nimcha and mine ends up lightly used but in a very crude mounting. I wonder how long that Nimcha is. Mine is 69cm OAL.

Thanks for the link on the Cross of St. James. In the Moorish application are there always 4 crosses? Mine has only 3. The half moon on his nimcha is a little different than mine too, it's facing a different direction.

Speaking of the half moon, I think I saw a picture of a Takouba with a nearly identical half moon on, but now I can't find the link.

Originally Posted by Iain

This does indeed look like a European blade with good age to it. The hilt style is from Berber north Africa, Tunis if I recall correctly.

I'm glad it's an "official" hilt style, to me it looked more like somebody tried to duplicate a machete handle. I haven't had any luck searching for Tunisian hilts on google, but I'll keep looking. I'm glad you decided not to bid on this one

[Jim McDougall]

Blue Lander, far from a dud!!!!
While of course 'rough' it is a sound example of a blade which has probably been in circulation for a considerable time, and as noted, has been rather radically reprofiled. The hilt corresponds to certain Maghrebi forms, loosely of the type often seen on s'bula from Moroccan regions, and which have ranged in diffusion all the way to Zanzibar on trade routes. The use of wood brings to mind certain Tunisian hilt forms as Iain has mentioned.

Returning to the blade, these distinct cross forms, particularly in the quadriform configuration seem to correspond to other examples seen occasionally on koummya if I recall correctly . The blade I would take for probably an 18th century German trade product and I suspect many of these to have ended up in the Maghreb. It seems that 'nimcha' sometimes have similar and on European origin blades of these forms which continued in production well into the 19th c.

Often trying to definitively classify ethnographic weapons by a typological term is pure folly, as these blades not only were recycled and remounted from one generation to the next. The term 'Berber' of course covers an immense scope across Saharan regions, but may be considered broadly in descriptions while remaining correctly applied .

I would consider this to be a Saharan knife with radically re profiled heavy sabre or cutlass blade of German import and probably as now mounted with tribal origins along Berber inhabited regions from Maghreb to Tunis. The blade likely latter 18th into 19th.

[blue lander]

Well I think that answers all of my questions. Thank you! I'm glad I finally got a blade with some significant age to it.

[blue lander]

Whoops, thought of a couple more questions: do you think the blade is crucible steel or blister steel? Should I etch the blade or should I just coat it in museum wax and call it a day?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Whoops, thought of a couple more questions: do you think the blade is crucible steel or blister steel? Should I etch the blade or should I just coat it in museum wax and call it a day?

It is a trade blade from Solingen which has nothing to do with those kinds of steel or forging, and a true antique with probably an amazing history. It is not a museum showpiece, but that blade has well earned that dark patination.
In my opinion, out of respect, I would suggest stabilizing and only light cleaning with WD40 or comparable. It is terrible to see the garish, over cleaned items often seen these days which have been stripped of the valuable patina and its inherent charm.

[blue lander]

I'll wipe it down and then give it a nice coat of WD-40. Thanks again.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by blue lander

It's so interesting that both of these swords have very similar markings, both were cut down in virtually the same configuration, and then his ends up heavily worn but in a beautiful nimcha and mine ends up lightly used but in a very crude mounting. I wonder how long that Nimcha is. Mine is 69cm OAL.

Thanks for the link on the Cross of St. James. In the Moorish application are there always 4 crosses? Mine has only 3. The half moon on his nimcha is a little different than mine too, it's facing a different direction.

Speaking of the half moon, I think I saw a picture of a Takouba with a nearly identical half moon on, but now I can't find the link.

I'm glad it's an "official" hilt style, to me it looked more like somebody tried to duplicate a machete handle. I haven't had any luck searching for Tunisian hilts on google, but I'll keep looking. I'm glad you decided not to bid on this one

Salaams blue lander .. I'm not sure about the moon being a half moon nor of it being a man in the moon face though clearly the European style inscribed on Toledo blades by Juan Martinez and Peter Munch(Peter Munich) were "man in the moon faces"...I think the later inscriptions copied onto Islamic region swords were of the new moon. Your moon comprises a moon (presumably new) and 3 new moons and possibly a sun..Peter Munch used moons as Talismans it is thought...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=MOONS
The reason for 3 crosses not 4 is probably because of the fullers preventing a 4th stamp being put. Three is a very powerful talismanic construct...in different regions including the Fleur de Lys 'Trio in Juncta' and Islamic forms.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams blue lander .. I'm not sure about the moon being a half moon nor of it being a man in the moon face though clearly the European style inscribed on Toledo blades by Juan Martinez and Peter Munch(Peter Munich) were "man in the moon faces"...I think the later inscriptions copied onto Islamic region swords were of the new moon. Your moon comprises a moon (presumably new) and 3 new moons and possibly a sun..Peter Munch used moons as Talismans it is thought...see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=MOONS
The reason for 3 crosses not 4 is probably because of the fullers preventing a 4th stamp being put. Three is a very powerful talismanic construct...in different regions including the Fleur de Lys 'Trio in Juncta' and Islamic forms.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

It is a man in the moon, or half moon. These are very common in the region and consist of the curved back of the crescent, the face, often with a pronounced nose and the eye. This particular one is a little more rudimentary than some, but still of the general form.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

It is a man in the moon, or half moon. These are very common in the region and consist of the curved back of the crescent, the face, often with a pronounced nose and the eye. This particular one is a little more rudimentary than some, but still of the general form.

Salaams Iain, I am aware of the numerous moon inscriptions generally seen on swords in the region but wish to point out that there are two distinct versions (generally).

The first is the Peter Munch full obvious moon face and the second what I describe as the new moon basically struck. The moon in #1 is clearly struck with 3 inner new moon shapes. I think this became the style on African and Arabian(mainly Red Sea) blades copied from Europeans. I also think that although Peter Munch is considered to have struck the moons as some sort of majic association it was without the realization that this could indeed be a strong Talisman in other regions.

The full faced man in the moon are struck at source whereas the more rudimentary forms are done in local workshops.

My main point is that these may not be considered as half moons in Islamic areas since the half moon has little significance whereas the new moon is an entirely different subject.

For a couple of examples of copied moons see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments #326.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain, I am aware of the numerous moon inscriptions generally seen on swords in the region but wish to point out that there are two distinct versions (generally).

The first is the Peter Munch full obvious moon face and the second what I describe as the new moon basically struck. The moon in #1 is clearly struck with 3 inner new moon shapes. I think this became the style on African and Arabian(mainly Red Sea) blades copied from Europeans. I also think that although Peter Munch is considered to have struck the moons as some sort of majic association it was without the realization that this could indeed be a strong Talisman in other regions.

The full faced man in the moon are struck at source whereas the more rudimentary forms are done in local workshops.

My main point is that these may not be considered as half moons in Islamic areas since the half moon has little significance whereas the new moon is an entirely different subject.

For a couple of examples of copied moons see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments #326.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Of course talismanic symbols from Europe can take on different meanings in various regions. However even degenerate forms like this one, they still retain the essential characteristics of the man in the moon mark. In this case the semi circles used to stamp the face, are merely the easiest way for the craftsman to achieve the desired pattern as he is not using a complete stamp. The three elements combine to create the distinctive nasal feature.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Of course talismanic symbols from Europe can take on different meanings in various regions. However even degenerate forms like this one, they still retain the essential characteristics of the man in the moon mark. In this case the semi circles used to stamp the face, are merely the easiest way for the craftsman to achieve the desired pattern as he is not using a complete stamp. The three elements combine to create the distinctive nasal feature.

Salaams Iain ~ Thank you for your diagram illustrating the moon relating its so called facial character.

A lot of folks reading into arms of these regions will have no idea about the Talismanic or other marks on swords...but as you say (and I agree) "Of course talismanic symbols from Europe can take on different meanings in various regions".

If the moon is copied (onto African and Arabian Sword blades) Does the feature then take on another meaning altogether ? ... Is it then a man in the moon or something else? I suggest the latter... In which case it is not a man in the moon .. It becomes a Talismanic object reflecting a new moon in the sense of the region in which it now resides...something very different to its original application and meaning.

In the same way the cross may well have changed to a star or even a dot..

* . and the cross becomes a sign of light (the candle) The dot an indicator of the centre of the Universe...

For a couple of examples of copied moons see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments #326.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~ Thank you for your diagram illustrating the moon relating its so called facial character.

It is what it is and it has a face. Usually when paired on face is open eyed the other winking. As I already stated these symbols can take on different meanings in different cultures, however the retention of the facial features speaks strongly to the lineage of the mark.

A new moon as far as I'm aware in Islamic art is not illustrated with a face... As seen in the one example you linked an image of where it is simply a crescent.

In the context of African blades the mark retained much of its original form because it was a hallmark of quality and not merely an illustrative symbol.

In short, marks can take on multiple meanings, sometimes outside of their original context. But when this much of the form is retained it speaks volumes as to the influence of the original application.