Hidden Room

[B.I]

hidden at the back of a room in a museum in venice. uncatalogued and forbidden to photograph, hence the blurred images.

[B.I]

more images

[nechesh]

Sweet! Who let you in and where do they hide the key?
Actually quite a shame that these are not on view to the public. It looks like an impressive collection from what i can see and your photos aren't all too bad given the circumstances.
Venice seems like an unusual place for such a collection. What's the deal? Have they had these long and why do they remain uncataloged? I'm sure we can get a special coalition of kerisophile forumites to make the journal and give them a hand.
What museum is this anyway?

[Spunjer]

WOW!

were there any moro weapons by any chance?

[B.I]

the museum is the Museo d'Arte Orientale which is housed upstairs from the contemporary art museum at Ca' Pesaro. the collection is one of the largest in japanese arms. the original collection was formed by the Conti di Bardi and composed of 30,000 pieces. apparantly it wa sold of to an antiques dealer in 1928 and then bought back by the state. the Conti travelled to asia on buying trips and i am assuming the indonesian pieces are part of his collection, and not bought from a different source at the same time. the museum holds the japanese collection in high regarda and pretty much ignores the indonesian pieces. they are situated in the last room, which is why i managed to take pictures. it is not an open museum, and the doors open every half hour and they lock you in, so time is limited.
their website - http://www.artive.arti.beniculturali...13/sala_13.htm

[B.I]

there were two cannon and this was the more interesting one with a double barrel.

[Mark]

Very very nice. They even have a couple dha! I am planning a trip to Italy this spring/summer (including Verona, where my wife has family). I think Venice just got added to the list of stops. Its not terribly far from Verona, after all.

[zamboanga]

wow! the double-barreled lantaka !!!
now i have seen it...

[Andrew]

Oh, my.

Thanks for sharing these with us, Brian.

[Battara]

Nicest double barrel I have ever seen. Do they have any keris there at all...anywhere?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

OUTSTANDING to bring this up to our attention ! The double barelled lantaka left me just like zamboanga speechless ... And all that wealth of Malay weaponry could make most museums blush ... the proto-kerises in display (one piece handle and blade) are just ,, tres extraordinaire ,, !
Youre a good man ! By the way are you located in bella Italia or were you just vacationing from somewhere else ?

[B.I]

this was a holiday and finding the room was an accident. i was aware of the japanese collection but decided to miss it and concentrate on finding the ottoman arms scattered around the city. as the contemporary art museum turned out to be in the same building, i thought i would pop in.
my interest and knowledge is not in this area, but thought it must be relatively unknown as it isnt listed anywhere. another one-piece keris is in the royal armouries and apparantly dated 15thC?

[gtinc]

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[JPSF]

B.I.,
interesting that the description is in English or were there multiple languages represented? Absolutely an astounding collection, but it's too bad there isn't easier access and information for the collector/scholar.

[B.I]

Originally Posted by JPSF

B.I.,
interesting that the description is in English or were there multiple languages represented? Absolutely an astounding collection, but it's too bad there isn't easier access and information for the collector/scholar.

hi john,
long time. slight confusion, the last 2 images were from the royal armouries and were to add to the one piece keris mentioned and shown in the venice museum, hence the description in english. i took pics of everything in that room, except on malaysian cannon, which wasnt as good as the double barrel. there were no other weapons except the japanese. no kukris i'm afraid. BIofGB

[DAHenkel]

Interesting - it appears the coteng hilt has migrated to the tajong sheath and the tajong hilt has migrated to a Javanese with a ladrangan sheath.

Curators, you just can't trust 'em to get it right.

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

This is truly a find! Thanks for sharing. I don't collect keris (yet) but I truly appreciate their beauty and absolutely LOVE the detail on that carving. Amazing to find a collection this extensive in so unlikely a place.

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Curators, you just can't trust 'em to get it right.

ehmmm!!

[JPSF]

Brian
Thanks for the great photos. You have quite a knack for clandestine "through the glass" imagery. Will the forumites get a chance to meet you in Baltimore?

[B.I]

hi john,
with respect to those followers of indonesian weapons, i wish they were pure indian or nepalese instead. maybe someone else will find a 'hidden room' that will excite us both.
i had not considered baltimore, but may find myself in san fran in march so you never know. we have a mutual friend who will be speaking there so this may be a good reason to turn up.
the pitt rivers is a museum that will impress many here, as the collection is more ethnographical with a huge assortment from almost every non-european nation. unfortunately the museum is so dark and dingy that earth shaking pieces are probably hidden at the back of dark display cabinets. from memory you cant take photos in there, but i know i have some somewhere, and will try and find them to see if there is anything worth posting. i do know that there are enough indian weapons for me to ignore the south east asian pieces in there (sorry).

[JPSF]

Baltimore is always of interest and depending on schedules there should be some good speakers (including Mr Barrett) on topics of interest to us all. Bonhams has just re-scheduled their weapons auction here in San Francisco for the 5th of April so many folks can attend both.

[Andrew]

Brian, it would be great to meet you at Baltimore, if you can make it.

JP, will you be bringing any goodies?

[JPSF]

I sent 3 koras to Baltimore last year, but they got there and I couldn't. I will bring at least one of these plus pix if Lee and Artzi can fit me into the schedule and I'll give you my 2 cents about these wicked weapons.

[BluErf]

Whoa, now that's what I call a keris display. Although I do find that seeing the tajong hilt on a Javanese keris is rather disturbing.

[Battara]

Yes, JP, we missed you last year. I hope you are able to bring a couple of your little buddies with you and talk about them (goodie, goodie ).

[John]

Such an impressive array of Kerises even in Venice! Thanks for sharing. I was also hoping to see a few Jians...

[Mare Rosu]

B.I
Late in posting this link to Georgia's (USA) own double barrel cannon.
Thanks for your email.
Gene
http://www.ngeorgia.com/feature/adbc.html

[GIO]

The Venice collection was put together during a journey in the Far East of the Prince Enrico di Borbone, Conte di Bardi, from 1887 to 1889.
After the dath of the Prince, in 1906, the widow sold the entire collection to Mr. Trau (an Austrian antiquarian) who started the sale of the specimens piece by piece. The beginning of the first Word War stopped the sales (the Italian Government refused to buy the collection at It. Lire 1.800.000 - equivalent to roughly 10/12 million dollars of today - because the expense was considered as not affordable), but at the end of the war the collection was returned to Italy as part of the reward for war damages.
Part of the collection , composed of Japanese, Chinese and Indonesian items, was used, until 1945, to decorate various government offices, ministries and embassies, and now is considered definitely lost.
This is in brief the story of this huge and wonderful collection, which comprises many exceptional pieces in perfect conditions.

Years ago, I think around 1995, after a visit to the museum, I went to the office of the director - a jung lady - to ask some questions about the lack of a catalogue, the prohibition of making photographs, and of such a poor collocation (no explanation at all) of the pieces.
The answer was: the catalogue needs too a big work (i.e. lack of money),
a permission to make photographs was easily obtainable on demand, and a new space for the museum had been already found in a different palace, always on the Grand Canal which has been purchased by the Venitian Municipality in 1981. Today the museum (after 30 years !!!) is still there.

Should somebody wish to have further information about this Italian shame, I shall be happy to answer at the best of my knowledge.

[sirupate]

Fabulous pictures

[GIO]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

WOW!

were there any moro weapons by any chance?

No moro weapons, as far as I know.
There is a number of mandaus and parangs, but kept in warehouse.