Keris Buda

rasjid · 30th August 2013, 06:30 PM

Thanks Alan for the update.
The Keris below was given to me from my friend who are not interested to keep it anymore due to personal reason. After getting permission from his two uncles and two years waiting period, this one and few keris and others belong to me now.

The physical blade is quite thin compared to Alan's. Is this also one of the transitional type from KB?
Any comments?
Thanks in advance.

A. G. Maisey · 30th August 2013, 10:01 PM

Rasjid, when I talk about a "transitional" keris I have in mind a keris that is not a KB, but that has some of the features of a KB. I cannot recall ever hearing anybody else use this term; mostly an ahli keris in Solo will place a dubious old blade between two tangguhs, not committing to either one.

I cannot recall ever having seen a KB with gonjo iras.

Is the tang of your keris square, rather than round?

Is the top of the gonjo the correct shape for a KB?

Has a core been used or not?

Is the material dense, well packed, or tending to porosity?

The long gandhik is not something I would expect in a keris that followed the KB line, rather, I would expect this in a Pajajaran or even a Tuban keris.

rasjid · 1st September 2013, 01:38 AM

G'day Alan,
The tang is square, and from my understanding this has core but laminated differently not sandwich like normally seen. The picture taken after warangan done and given oil on the blade.
The blade is dense and well packed, I like the material used.
Agreed Pajajaran or Tuban and the owner's family history has relationship with Mangkunegaran and lived in Kebumen.
Ok noted that the long gandhik as shown is probably not a "transitionall" keris KB.

"Is the top of the gonjo the correct shape for a KB?"
Could you elaborate more by what you mean?

Thank you.
Rasjid

A. G. Maisey · 1st September 2013, 03:37 AM

Rasjid

Have a look at image 12 for the gonjo.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE3.html

Image 11 shows a keris that seems to be between a KB and a recognisably Modern Keris. The gonjo of this old waved keris is KB style, material conforms, but then we've got that long gandhik, and of course the waves. I've opted to call this "transitional", but we could equally call it "early Modern". Maybe the same line of thought could apply to your keris.

Yeah, based upon what you say, I think we could probably think of your keris as a transitional form, the square tang is possibly the decider, if you get that plus a few other things then its a bit hard to say that it is purely Modern in form.

You say the core is not a side to side core. Is it fitted like a "V", so that it only provides cutting edges?

Really Rasjid, in this whole area of KB's and very early keris, we're swimming in strange waters. To my knowledge nobody else has ever looked really closely at these questions. The whole time I've been studying keris the focus has been on art and to learn how to apply the tangguh system in a way that doesn't divorce you too much from the consensus of opinion. I've gone off to one side.

rasjid · 2nd September 2013, 05:32 AM

Alan,

Thank you. I have very limited knowledge about Keris, especially never actually make one myself (from folding the material itself). For me to understand better about Keris itself we also need to understand how the keris is folded, the core and the pamor as well.
Back to my previous keris picture, I'm not 100% sure if its fitted like "V" or like Japanese sword or not. From what i can see, after the warangan - i can see the different material is used from that blade.

Mine also do not have the steel mendak, just plain square peksi.
Thanks

A. G. Maisey · 2nd September 2013, 06:52 AM

Maybe the easiest way to gain an understanding of what happens when we fold and weld material is to duplicate the process with plasticine. I seem to recall Pauzan used this when he was working out how to weld ron duru.

I can understand what you mean when you say that different material is used for the core than for the blade, we can expect this, but what causes you to think that the core has been put into the blade in a manner that varies from the common side to side sandwich?

Re mendak, is that mendak ferric material? It looks like brass in the photo. Or maybe you have replaced the original ferric one with a brass one?

rasjid · 2nd September 2013, 03:17 PM

Just my imagination, if the middle is the core ( different colour from other blade material surrounding it) the maker could sandwhich the core and Turn 45 degree before hammering so that the core in the middle. Straight through the peksi... and again I could be wrong

There is was old mendak attached when I received it but unusable anymore. I replace it with cirebonan handle and brass mendak as personal preference.

30th August 2013, 06:30 PM	#1
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Thanks Alan for the update. The Keris below was given to me from my friend who are not interested to keep it anymore due to personal reason. After getting permission from his two uncles and two years waiting period, this one and few keris and others belong to me now. The physical blade is quite thin compared to Alan's. Is this also one of the transitional type from KB? Any comments? Thanks in advance. Attached Images

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30th August 2013, 10:01 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,188	Rasjid, when I talk about a "transitional" keris I have in mind a keris that is not a KB, but that has some of the features of a KB. I cannot recall ever hearing anybody else use this term; mostly an ahli keris in Solo will place a dubious old blade between two tangguhs, not committing to either one. I cannot recall ever having seen a KB with gonjo iras. Is the tang of your keris square, rather than round? Is the top of the gonjo the correct shape for a KB? Has a core been used or not? Is the material dense, well packed, or tending to porosity? The long gandhik is not something I would expect in a keris that followed the KB line, rather, I would expect this in a Pajajaran or even a Tuban keris.

1st September 2013, 01:38 AM	#3
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	G'day Alan, The tang is square, and from my understanding this has core but laminated differently not sandwich like normally seen. The picture taken after warangan done and given oil on the blade. The blade is dense and well packed, I like the material used. Agreed Pajajaran or Tuban and the owner's family history has relationship with Mangkunegaran and lived in Kebumen. Ok noted that the long gandhik as shown is probably not a "transitionall" keris KB. "Is the top of the gonjo the correct shape for a KB?" Could you elaborate more by what you mean? Thank you. Rasjid

1st September 2013, 03:37 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,188	Rasjid Have a look at image 12 for the gonjo. http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE3.html Image 11 shows a keris that seems to be between a KB and a recognisably Modern Keris. The gonjo of this old waved keris is KB style, material conforms, but then we've got that long gandhik, and of course the waves. I've opted to call this "transitional", but we could equally call it "early Modern". Maybe the same line of thought could apply to your keris. Yeah, based upon what you say, I think we could probably think of your keris as a transitional form, the square tang is possibly the decider, if you get that plus a few other things then its a bit hard to say that it is purely Modern in form. You say the core is not a side to side core. Is it fitted like a "V", so that it only provides cutting edges? Really Rasjid, in this whole area of KB's and very early keris, we're swimming in strange waters. To my knowledge nobody else has ever looked really closely at these questions. The whole time I've been studying keris the focus has been on art and to learn how to apply the tangguh system in a way that doesn't divorce you too much from the consensus of opinion. I've gone off to one side.

2nd September 2013, 05:32 AM	#5
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Alan, Thank you. I have very limited knowledge about Keris, especially never actually make one myself (from folding the material itself). For me to understand better about Keris itself we also need to understand how the keris is folded, the core and the pamor as well. Back to my previous keris picture, I'm not 100% sure if its fitted like "V" or like Japanese sword or not. From what i can see, after the warangan - i can see the different material is used from that blade. Mine also do not have the steel mendak, just plain square peksi. Thanks

2nd September 2013, 06:52 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,188	Maybe the easiest way to gain an understanding of what happens when we fold and weld material is to duplicate the process with plasticine. I seem to recall Pauzan used this when he was working out how to weld ron duru. I can understand what you mean when you say that different material is used for the core than for the blade, we can expect this, but what causes you to think that the core has been put into the blade in a manner that varies from the common side to side sandwich? Re mendak, is that mendak ferric material? It looks like brass in the photo. Or maybe you have replaced the original ferric one with a brass one?

2nd September 2013, 03:17 PM	#7
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Just my imagination, if the middle is the core ( different colour from other blade material surrounding it) the maker could sandwhich the core and Turn 45 degree before hammering so that the core in the middle. Straight through the peksi... and again I could be wrong There is was old mendak attached when I received it but unusable anymore. I replace it with cirebonan handle and brass mendak as personal preference.