Question about integral bolsters

Timo Nieminen · 27th August 2013, 01:02 AM

I've seen Medieval European knives with integral (as in forged-in-one-piece) bolsters. With some, I might be wrong, as they might have been welded or brazed on, but some little bolsters are clearly forged as part of the blade. Welded/brazed (or no bolster) appears to be more common.

Do early Central Asian sabres have integral tunkou (to use the Chinese name; the collar at the base of the blade, like the Japanese habaki)? I know later ones are usually separate, and not attached (just tightly fitted), but some of the early ones look like they might be integral (or welded on).

(IIRC, I've seen west Asian bronze swords with integral bolsters. Can't think of European examples. Easy to do with bronze, since you're casting instead of forging.)

KuKulzA28 · 27th August 2013, 01:08 AM

Another example comes to mind:

Knives from Kerala have integral bolsters.

Emanuel · 27th August 2013, 07:26 PM

Thanks guys!

Yes on the Kerala knives, but a fair distance from Anatolia.

Timo the tukou and habaki are not integral. In the case of nihonto the habaki isn't even structural, it serves as an interface with the scabbard to protect the surface of the blade, not to reinforce the blade. And again, how and when did the integral bolster enter Anatolian bladesmithing when it is absent from neighbouring cultures?

Any reference I could check for the medieval knives? I haven't seen anything with an integral bolster.

And, to clarify, I am looking for one-piece bolster construction in ferrous bladesmithing, not bronze casting.

Cheers!
Emanuel

Timo Nieminen · 27th August 2013, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Timo the tukou and habaki are not integral. In the case of nihonto the habaki isn't even structural, it serves as an interface with the scabbard to protect the surface of the blade, not to reinforce the blade.

See Iaroslav Lebedynsky, De l'épée Scythe au sabre Mongol, Errance, Paris, 2008, pg 168 C(e), for a knife or sword with a possible integral collar, and pg 175 v, for a sword. I wouldn't call these bolsters, since they have a guard butted up against them, and are part of the blade, rather than the hilt. I can't tell from the drawings whether these are integral or not.

(There is at least one rivetted-on tunkou in that book; there is some diversity in how these are done.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Any reference I could check for the medieval knives? I haven't seen anything with an integral bolster.

Will look.

Emanuel · 27th August 2013, 11:32 PM

Thanks Timo!

Timo Nieminen · 28th August 2013, 03:50 AM

Some candidates for late Medieval knives with integral bolsters:
http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/86821
http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/86819
http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/86817
http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/86808

According to Paul Binns, integral bolsters appear in early Tudor. An iron tang is welded on to a steel blade on these, and the bolster is formed from the join: http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/knives.html

Timo Nieminen · 28th August 2013, 05:00 AM

See JUM#13, JUM#14, JUM#16, JUM#17, JUM#18 in http://www.ucl.ac.uk/iams/newsletter...2005_feuerbach for some examples of Central Asian knives that appear to have integral bolsters.

Emanuel · 12th November 2013, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Another example comes to mind:

Knives from Kerala have integral bolsters.

Turns out the Kerala knives do not have integral bolsters. They are made from multiple parts.

Emanuel · 12th November 2013, 01:24 AM

Thank you Timo!

I had a quick chat with Paul Binns. It seems that in the Late-Medieval and Tudor periods knives were often made by welding a shear steel blade to a wrought iron handle. The bolster was the junction of the weld.

I got the Iaroslav Lebedynsky book, a very good source to have. There's mention of the bolster feature appearing on tatar sabres. These are generally the tounkou feature seen on Mongolian and Chinese sabres, and they area separate. The text suggests that these "manchons au talon" were sometimes forged integrally to the blade but it glosses over this without examples. Frustrating.

Unfortunately the pictures of the JUM knives aren't good enough to tell for sure. I see a collar at the base of the blade but is it integral?

Along with the examples I've listed in my original post I'll add the Bou-Saada knives and the Genoese knives they resemble.

On all of these 19th century weapons we see a thick integral bolster on thick blades, when earlier blades were thinner and did not need an integral bolster.

Emanuel

ariel · 13th November 2013, 11:42 PM

I have a Wedung with a - kind of- integral bolster.

Emanuel · 14th November 2013, 03:57 AM

And I have some sikin from Aceh with wonderful crown integral bolsters. Fine in the south-east Asian context, but not from the Mediterranean or Ottoman sphere.

Any west/central Asian examples?

Yes, the integral bolster has a medieval tradition in western European and Italian cutlery. But why and how its transfer to heavy long swords in Ottoman regions when the standard sabre design was good enough?

Why blades with heavy integral bolsters in Anatolia, the Balkans, and Algeria, coincident with a 300-year tradition of thin flat blades with separate ornamental ferules?

So, in the Mediterranean (and Black Sea) basins we have:
- Maybe Kuban/Circassian/Tatar knives and sabres - very early
- Genovese knives - early
- Anatolian yataghan with Turkush ribbon - early/middle
- Kabyle flyssa - middle
- Bulgarian karakulak - middle/late
- Ionian yataghan with T-pommel - late
- Pontic Laz bicag - very late

All coastal areas within the Ottoman sphere of influence and on the Genovese/Italian trade routes.

Emanuel

Emanuel · 14th November 2013, 01:16 PM

"The Art of the Muslim Knight" includes examples of Mughal, Rajasthani, and Persian kards from the 17th century with integral bolster construction. There are also examples of Ottoman kard and fork sets with integral bolsters, dating from that time.

The feature was well used in small cutlery by the 17th century then but again, how and why was it transferred to large sword blades?

27th August 2013, 07:26 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks guys! Yes on the Kerala knives, but a fair distance from Anatolia. Timo the tukou and habaki are not integral. In the case of nihonto the habaki isn't even structural, it serves as an interface with the scabbard to protect the surface of the blade, not to reinforce the blade. And again, how and when did the integral bolster enter Anatolian bladesmithing when it is absent from neighbouring cultures? Any reference I could check for the medieval knives? I haven't seen anything with an integral bolster. And, to clarify, I am looking for one-piece bolster construction in ferrous bladesmithing, not bronze casting. Cheers! Emanuel Last edited by Emanuel; 27th August 2013 at 07:43 PM.

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27th August 2013, 01:02 AM	#1
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	I've seen Medieval European knives with integral (as in forged-in-one-piece) bolsters. With some, I might be wrong, as they might have been welded or brazed on, but some little bolsters are clearly forged as part of the blade. Welded/brazed (or no bolster) appears to be more common. Do early Central Asian sabres have integral tunkou (to use the Chinese name; the collar at the base of the blade, like the Japanese habaki)? I know later ones are usually separate, and not attached (just tightly fitted), but some of the early ones look like they might be integral (or welded on). (IIRC, I've seen west Asian bronze swords with integral bolsters. Can't think of European examples. Easy to do with bronze, since you're casting instead of forging.)

27th August 2013, 01:08 AM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Another example comes to mind: Knives from Kerala have integral bolsters.

27th August 2013, 11:32 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks Timo!

28th August 2013, 03:50 AM	#6
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Some candidates for late Medieval knives with integral bolsters: http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/86821 http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/86819 http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/86817 http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/86808 According to Paul Binns, integral bolsters appear in early Tudor. An iron tang is welded on to a steel blade on these, and the bolster is formed from the join: http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/knives.html

28th August 2013, 05:00 AM	#7
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	See JUM#13, JUM#14, JUM#16, JUM#17, JUM#18 in http://www.ucl.ac.uk/iams/newsletter...2005_feuerbach for some examples of Central Asian knives that appear to have integral bolsters.

12th November 2013, 01:24 AM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thank you Timo! I had a quick chat with Paul Binns. It seems that in the Late-Medieval and Tudor periods knives were often made by welding a shear steel blade to a wrought iron handle. The bolster was the junction of the weld. I got the Iaroslav Lebedynsky book, a very good source to have. There's mention of the bolster feature appearing on tatar sabres. These are generally the tounkou feature seen on Mongolian and Chinese sabres, and they area separate. The text suggests that these "manchons au talon" were sometimes forged integrally to the blade but it glosses over this without examples. Frustrating. Unfortunately the pictures of the JUM knives aren't good enough to tell for sure. I see a collar at the base of the blade but is it integral? Along with the examples I've listed in my original post I'll add the Bou-Saada knives and the Genoese knives they resemble. On all of these 19th century weapons we see a thick integral bolster on thick blades, when earlier blades were thinner and did not need an integral bolster. Emanuel

13th November 2013, 11:42 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have a Wedung with a - kind of- integral bolster.

14th November 2013, 03:57 AM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	And I have some sikin from Aceh with wonderful crown integral bolsters. Fine in the south-east Asian context, but not from the Mediterranean or Ottoman sphere. Any west/central Asian examples? Yes, the integral bolster has a medieval tradition in western European and Italian cutlery. But why and how its transfer to heavy long swords in Ottoman regions when the standard sabre design was good enough? Why blades with heavy integral bolsters in Anatolia, the Balkans, and Algeria, coincident with a 300-year tradition of thin flat blades with separate ornamental ferules? So, in the Mediterranean (and Black Sea) basins we have: - Maybe Kuban/Circassian/Tatar knives and sabres - very early - Genovese knives - early - Anatolian yataghan with Turkush ribbon - early/middle - Kabyle flyssa - middle - Bulgarian karakulak - middle/late - Ionian yataghan with T-pommel - late - Pontic Laz bicag - very late All coastal areas within the Ottoman sphere of influence and on the Genovese/Italian trade routes. Emanuel

14th November 2013, 01:16 PM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	"The Art of the Muslim Knight" includes examples of Mughal, Rajasthani, and Persian kards from the 17th century with integral bolster construction. There are also examples of Ottoman kard and fork sets with integral bolsters, dating from that time. The feature was well used in small cutlery by the 17th century then but again, how and why was it transferred to large sword blades?