Flintlock from Morocco for comment

donnydogs · 9th April 2013, 06:45 PM

This old flintlock was brought in Marrakesh, Morocco in the late 1940’s. Any information about it would be greatly appreciated. The gun has a barrel of 33 inches with an overall length of 45 inches. From the trigger to the butt is only 9 inches.
Does this style gun have a name? Is the gun associated with a certain people or area? How is a gun with such a short stock held when shooting?
Thanks for your help, Donny

Andreas · 10th April 2013, 09:56 AM

It's an Afedali, i.e. a Moroccan Moukhala from the Taroudant area and the Souss wadi bassin.
Regards,
Andreas

donnydogs · 11th April 2013, 05:59 PM

Thanks Andreas, I am happy to learn about the names Afedali and Moukhala.
In searching I also learned that it is not a flintlock but a “snaphance lock.” I had assumed that the inlays were ivory but now I think they might be bone. I wonder if there is a way to determine what material was used.

The way it is held when shooting is still a mystery to me. If held at the shoulder the shooters nose touches the cocked hammer and the burning powder in the pan would likely be blinding. The bend of the elbow cannot be used against the butt of the stock because when the hand is on the trigger the stock is too short to reach the bend. So I can only imagine that the butt of the stock is not supported in any way but is free to recoil except for being held by the shooters two hands. Maybe the answer is that this is the best way to shoot from a galloping horse.

rickystl · 14th April 2013, 06:26 PM

hi donnydogs. As for identification, I agree with Andreas.

There were two Snaphaunce lock patterns used. The English pattern, and the Dutch pattern. Your's is the English pattern. Below, is a photo of the Dutch pattern. They both operate in the same manner.

But you also ask an interesting question as regards what shooters call the LOP (length of pull). I actually own two of these Moroccan guns that I've restored to shooting condition. The LOP of both my guns is 11-12 inches. I have held and measured the LOP on at least two dozen of these guns and find the 11-12 inches to be common. Therefore, I believe this LOP matched the average stature of men in that Region at that time in history. Remember, the average height of a man in that Region may have been only about 5'4" back then (?).
Also, note the end of the butt stocks of these guns, the wood was added in segments. My theory for these segments was that it allowed less wood to be utilized, and the LOP could be adjusted to the individual shooter, by adding or subtracting segments when built - or at a later date. (Does this make sense?)
It appears to me your gun is missing at least one segment. Which, according to measurements of my two guns would add another 2 inches. There might be two reasons for this: 1) The missing segment was damaged, and someone attempted to replace the iron protectors on the existing segment. 2) At sometime in the past, a segment was removed so that the LOP would fit a young man, maybe about 12 years old. There are numerous examples of these Ethno guns that were made for a young child.
But from your photos, it appears that yours is missing one segment.
Anyway, that's my theory. Opposing/additional views invited.

Attached are photos of one of mine showing the Dutch variation of the Snaphaunce lock and the additional wood segments. Hope some of this helps. And thanks for posting. Rick.

donnydogs · 15th April 2013, 09:09 PM

Thanks Rick for your conformation of the I.D. of the gun and the added information about the lock. I really liked your pictures.
As for your ideas about the stock: everything you said makes sense and is likely to be true. Especially when the average LOP for these guns is 11 to 12 inches. The LOP on a current youth rifle is 12 to 13 inches. So these people really had to be as short as you said.

But I still have the slightest amount of doubt that the stock is against the shoulder when shooting. Here are some other ideas for discussion. 1. If the butt of the stock was to be put against the shoulder wouldn’t the butt and the corners be somewhat rounded? My gun actually has some what sharp metal on the corners. 2. The spacer could be there to provide wood grain at 90 degrees to the stock grain for strength. Without the spacer the flared design of the corners would be prone to split off easily along the direction of the grain. 3. If the stock is not put against the shoulder why is it there? Its function may be simply to provide a flat surface to set the gun while it is loaded from the muzzle.
Pistols are shot only using hands maybe a light recoiling rifle could be also.

rickystl · 28th April 2013, 05:26 PM

Hi Donny. Thanks for your last reply. I've been traveling and have not had much of a chance to respond. You present some interesting additional questions.
My therories and conclusions on the styling of these guns are also based on my experiences loading and firing actual specimiens. Warning: do not fire these guns without a new barrel liner.
The more I look at the photos of your gun, the more convinced I am that it was made for a youth. The barrel on most of the Moroccan guns are about 42" or longer - usually longer. Of course there are original examples with cut down barrels, but the barrel on y your gun still has a cannon style muzzle. So it appears the gun was made with a 33" barrel. The combination of the barrel length and the shorter than normal LOP brings me to that conclusion.
One of the theories is that these guns were fired from the chest vs the shoulder? I don't believe that is correct. It is very awkward, and in any case there would not be no need for a rear sight. And every one of these I've seen has a rear sight. When I shoulder these guns to shoot, I simply shift my shoulder forward a slightly - which adds about 2" - and the gun is actually fairly comfortable to shoot.
Another theory of the flat butt stock was to aid in loading - allowing the butt stock to be placed on the ground - while on horse/camel. I don't believe this one either. Even the longest barrel would not allow convenient loading. The gun would not be long enough to reach the ground to load from horseback much less camelback. No, I believe at least the upper portion of the butt stock curve was used as an aid to carry under the arm pit while riding. Also note these guns - even with long barrels - are relatively light. An aid to carrying in the mountainous region while riding. The thin fore stock is very delicate, requiring multiple barrel bands fore strength.
If this style of butt stock were not made in segments, it would require a very wide piece of walnut, which would be more difficult to obtain. Many of these segments were made from horn, ivory, etc., depending on the decoration and quality of the gun.
All this said, there are two other styles of the Moroccan snaphaunce muskets, from different Regions, that differ primarily their different butt stock styles and the decoration. One of which is a bigger mystery than this style

I'm still working on all these theories

Thanks again for posting one of my favorite topics. Rick.

donnydogs · 1st May 2013, 12:33 AM

Hi Rick, Thanks for considering all my ideas. I think you are correct that my gun must be a sized for a youth. Based on your experience it is the only answer. I have been trying to imagine shooting accurately from a galloping horse. Maybe they madly rode into a crowd of the enemy and shot at such a short range that they did not need to aim with precision. In this situation the gun need not be held by any particular technique - somehow quickly get the gun pointed and pull the trigger. The target may be just a yard or less from the muzzle. But if the situation did allow for a more careful shot from the shoulder then the sights would be used.
Here is a link to some great photos some showing Moroccan guns being shot from horseback. http://www.flickr.com/photos/fedala/sets/851624/

rickystl · 4th May 2013, 06:21 PM

Hi Donny. OHHHHHH.......thank you so much for the Link and photos. I've never seen these before. I'll save the Link. Thank you!

I notice in the photos that they are carrying newer made guns with percussion locks vs flintlocks, which would be much more convenient firing from horse back. Wish I knew who built those guns!!
Meantime, here is a photo of an old French postcard I have. Look at the length of the barrel on that Snaphaunce gun!!

Rick.

donnydogs · 6th May 2013, 05:23 PM

Hi Rick, Wow, that post card shows longest barrel I have ever seen. Plus it shows shooting from the shoulder in a standard manner. I am glad that you liked the photos from the link. It is great to see the guns in their cultural setting. Also the horses were so beautiful and dramatic. On another subject, I have no idea of the collector interest in Moroccan guns like mine. Of course I would not ask for a value on my gun. My gun will stay in the family. But my son recently saw a moukhala at a gun show where they were asking $1800. I thought that must be very high. I wonder if you know an auction or some other site where I could watch the selling prices just to get an idea of the price range for these guns. I enjoy all your replies, thanks very much.

9th April 2013, 06:45 PM	#1
donnydogs Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6	Flintlock from Morocco for comment This old flintlock was brought in Marrakesh, Morocco in the late 1940’s. Any information about it would be greatly appreciated. The gun has a barrel of 33 inches with an overall length of 45 inches. From the trigger to the butt is only 9 inches. Does this style gun have a name? Is the gun associated with a certain people or area? How is a gun with such a short stock held when shooting? Thanks for your help, Donny Attached Images

14th April 2013, 06:26 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	hi donnydogs. As for identification, I agree with Andreas. There were two Snaphaunce lock patterns used. The English pattern, and the Dutch pattern. Your's is the English pattern. Below, is a photo of the Dutch pattern. They both operate in the same manner. But you also ask an interesting question as regards what shooters call the LOP (length of pull). I actually own two of these Moroccan guns that I've restored to shooting condition. The LOP of both my guns is 11-12 inches. I have held and measured the LOP on at least two dozen of these guns and find the 11-12 inches to be common. Therefore, I believe this LOP matched the average stature of men in that Region at that time in history. Remember, the average height of a man in that Region may have been only about 5'4" back then (?). Also, note the end of the butt stocks of these guns, the wood was added in segments. My theory for these segments was that it allowed less wood to be utilized, and the LOP could be adjusted to the individual shooter, by adding or subtracting segments when built - or at a later date. (Does this make sense?) It appears to me your gun is missing at least one segment. Which, according to measurements of my two guns would add another 2 inches. There might be two reasons for this: 1) The missing segment was damaged, and someone attempted to replace the iron protectors on the existing segment. 2) At sometime in the past, a segment was removed so that the LOP would fit a young man, maybe about 12 years old. There are numerous examples of these Ethno guns that were made for a young child. But from your photos, it appears that yours is missing one segment. Anyway, that's my theory. Opposing/additional views invited. Attached are photos of one of mine showing the Dutch variation of the Snaphaunce lock and the additional wood segments. Hope some of this helps. And thanks for posting. Rick. Attached Images

4th May 2013, 06:21 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Donny. OHHHHHH.......thank you so much for the Link and photos. I've never seen these before. I'll save the Link. Thank you! I notice in the photos that they are carrying newer made guns with percussion locks vs flintlocks, which would be much more convenient firing from horse back. Wish I knew who built those guns!! Meantime, here is a photo of an old French postcard I have. Look at the length of the barrel on that Snaphaunce gun!! Rick. Attached Images

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10th April 2013, 09:56 AM	#2
Andreas Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ionian Islands, Greece Posts: 96	It's an Afedali, i.e. a Moroccan Moukhala from the Taroudant area and the Souss wadi bassin. Regards, Andreas

11th April 2013, 05:59 PM	#3
donnydogs Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6	Thanks Andreas, I am happy to learn about the names Afedali and Moukhala. In searching I also learned that it is not a flintlock but a “snaphance lock.” I had assumed that the inlays were ivory but now I think they might be bone. I wonder if there is a way to determine what material was used. The way it is held when shooting is still a mystery to me. If held at the shoulder the shooters nose touches the cocked hammer and the burning powder in the pan would likely be blinding. The bend of the elbow cannot be used against the butt of the stock because when the hand is on the trigger the stock is too short to reach the bend. So I can only imagine that the butt of the stock is not supported in any way but is free to recoil except for being held by the shooters two hands. Maybe the answer is that this is the best way to shoot from a galloping horse.

15th April 2013, 09:09 PM	#5
donnydogs Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6	Thanks Rick for your conformation of the I.D. of the gun and the added information about the lock. I really liked your pictures. As for your ideas about the stock: everything you said makes sense and is likely to be true. Especially when the average LOP for these guns is 11 to 12 inches. The LOP on a current youth rifle is 12 to 13 inches. So these people really had to be as short as you said. But I still have the slightest amount of doubt that the stock is against the shoulder when shooting. Here are some other ideas for discussion. 1. If the butt of the stock was to be put against the shoulder wouldn’t the butt and the corners be somewhat rounded? My gun actually has some what sharp metal on the corners. 2. The spacer could be there to provide wood grain at 90 degrees to the stock grain for strength. Without the spacer the flared design of the corners would be prone to split off easily along the direction of the grain. 3. If the stock is not put against the shoulder why is it there? Its function may be simply to provide a flat surface to set the gun while it is loaded from the muzzle. Pistols are shot only using hands maybe a light recoiling rifle could be also.

28th April 2013, 05:26 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Donny. Thanks for your last reply. I've been traveling and have not had much of a chance to respond. You present some interesting additional questions. My therories and conclusions on the styling of these guns are also based on my experiences loading and firing actual specimiens. Warning: do not fire these guns without a new barrel liner. The more I look at the photos of your gun, the more convinced I am that it was made for a youth. The barrel on most of the Moroccan guns are about 42" or longer - usually longer. Of course there are original examples with cut down barrels, but the barrel on y your gun still has a cannon style muzzle. So it appears the gun was made with a 33" barrel. The combination of the barrel length and the shorter than normal LOP brings me to that conclusion. One of the theories is that these guns were fired from the chest vs the shoulder? I don't believe that is correct. It is very awkward, and in any case there would not be no need for a rear sight. And every one of these I've seen has a rear sight. When I shoulder these guns to shoot, I simply shift my shoulder forward a slightly - which adds about 2" - and the gun is actually fairly comfortable to shoot. Another theory of the flat butt stock was to aid in loading - allowing the butt stock to be placed on the ground - while on horse/camel. I don't believe this one either. Even the longest barrel would not allow convenient loading. The gun would not be long enough to reach the ground to load from horseback much less camelback. No, I believe at least the upper portion of the butt stock curve was used as an aid to carry under the arm pit while riding. Also note these guns - even with long barrels - are relatively light. An aid to carrying in the mountainous region while riding. The thin fore stock is very delicate, requiring multiple barrel bands fore strength. If this style of butt stock were not made in segments, it would require a very wide piece of walnut, which would be more difficult to obtain. Many of these segments were made from horn, ivory, etc., depending on the decoration and quality of the gun. All this said, there are two other styles of the Moroccan snaphaunce muskets, from different Regions, that differ primarily their different butt stock styles and the decoration. One of which is a bigger mystery than this style I'm still working on all these theories Thanks again for posting one of my favorite topics. Rick.

1st May 2013, 12:33 AM	#7
donnydogs Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6	Hi Rick, Thanks for considering all my ideas. I think you are correct that my gun must be a sized for a youth. Based on your experience it is the only answer. I have been trying to imagine shooting accurately from a galloping horse. Maybe they madly rode into a crowd of the enemy and shot at such a short range that they did not need to aim with precision. In this situation the gun need not be held by any particular technique - somehow quickly get the gun pointed and pull the trigger. The target may be just a yard or less from the muzzle. But if the situation did allow for a more careful shot from the shoulder then the sights would be used. Here is a link to some great photos some showing Moroccan guns being shot from horseback. http://www.flickr.com/photos/fedala/sets/851624/

6th May 2013, 05:23 PM	#9
donnydogs Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 6	Hi Rick, Wow, that post card shows longest barrel I have ever seen. Plus it shows shooting from the shoulder in a standard manner. I am glad that you liked the photos from the link. It is great to see the guns in their cultural setting. Also the horses were so beautiful and dramatic. On another subject, I have no idea of the collector interest in Moroccan guns like mine. Of course I would not ask for a value on my gun. My gun will stay in the family. But my son recently saw a moukhala at a gun show where they were asking $1800. I thought that must be very high. I wonder if you know an auction or some other site where I could watch the selling prices just to get an idea of the price range for these guns. I enjoy all your replies, thanks very much.