Native American bone breastplate

aiontay · 7th March 2013, 12:51 PM

This topic came up before. These are definitely not armor; they're big pieces of bead work. Look and see if there are any flat places on the bone beads. That is one of the signs my grandmother told me to always look for, although these days they probably fake that as well.

Just because you are prepared to die in battle, doesn't mean you won't try to avoid it. We did carry shields after all.

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2013, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

This topic came up before. These are definitely not armor; they're big pieces of bead work. Look and see if there are any flat places on the bone beads. That is one of the signs my grandmother told me to always look for, although these days they probably fake that as well.

Just because you are prepared to die in battle, doesn't mean you won't try to avoid it. We did carry shields after all.

Hi Aiontay,
Actually this topic certainly has come up, but I cannot recall how long it has been. Its always great to see the subject of American Indian weaponry come up as it is one I find fascinating and enjoy learning more about. I do feel a bit awkward though trying to describe what is often perceived about the perspective held on certain matters within another culture, when clearly I am only an observer, and obviously do not have first hand access.

This is why I often write in depth (and thank you so much Colin for reading my posts and for the personal acknowledgement, very much appreciated), so I can try to show various aspects of the topic. I think in my post #6 I did note the fact that these breastplates were mostly decorative and evolved from beadwork, describing trade 'hair pipes' from New York into the upper Missouri River regions, which were actually 'beads' fashioned from shells.

I also tried to clarify my earlier note regarding the ethos of the Plains warriors in their warrior societies as described by author David E. Jones ("Native North American Armor, Shields and Fortifications", 2004, p.45).
In his description Jones notes the death haunted warrior songs of these groups, and asks, "...how could a warrior sing 'I am the one who wishes to die' and strap on a six ply rawhide vest, war shirt and helmet?".
He goes on to cite references from early writer Robert H. Lowie ("Anthropological Papers of the American Museum of Natural History", Vol. 11, part 11, p.846, 'The Kiowa Warrior',1916) who notes the chant of some Kiowa warriors, "..now I am gone. I am going to leave you. I will not run anymore". The Crow warriors of the Fox Society sang, "...listen you foxes, I want to die" (Lowie, op. cit. 1913, p.158, Vol. 11, "Crow Military Societies").

In my subsequent post I pointed out that despite these apparant death oriented ethos among warriors of these societies, clearly there was a much larger character of self preservation among tribal warriors in general. Lowie apparantly also noted that despite the contrary attitude of the warrior society members they paradoxically honored the custom that the loss of a single man in battle negated any cause for celebration at its end regardless of outcome.

In reviewing these references and the amazing detail included by these anthropologists, the most important factor I have realized is the absolute brilliance of the warriors of these tribes, ever expanding my admiration not only of them, but of Native American tribes overall and thier culture.

All best wishes,
Jim

VANDOO · 7th March 2013, 07:09 PM

THESE WERE NOT A COMMON PART OF DRESS OWNED OR WORN BY ALL TRIBE MEMBERS. THEY SHOWED WEALTH AND POSITION OF PEOPLE IN THE TRIBE AND WERE EARNED BY THOSE WHO EXCELLED. TRIBAL LIFE DID NOT REWARD THOSE WHO DID NOT DO ANYTHING GOOD FOR THE TRIBE AND THE MORE VALUABLE YOU WERE TO THE TRIBE THE MORE HONOR AND RESPECT YOU RECEIVED. ALONG WITH THAT POSITION CAME THE WEALTH IN THE FORM OF THINGS LIKE THESE BREASTPLATES.
TODAY THEY ARE WORN BY THOSE ABLE TO AFFORD THEM TO POWWOWS AND CEREMONIES. I MADE THE MISTAKE OF ASKING AN OSSAGE AT A CEREMONIE IF THE COSTUMES BEING WORN WERE THE ORIGINAL OSAGE TRADITIONAL DRESS OR IF SOME THINGS HAD BEEN INCORPORATED FROM OTHER TRIBES. I WAS TOLD IN NO UNCERTIAN TERMS THAT THESE WERE NOT COSTUMES BUT THE UNIFORMS OF THE WARRIORS OF THE TRIBE AND I COULD CALL THEM REGALIA BUT NOT COSTUMES. END OF DISCUSSION AND I STILL HAD MY HAIR

I STILL WONDER IF THE REGALIA HAS STAYED TRUE TO THE TRIBES ORIGINAL FORMS OR IF IT HAS BEEN CHANGED OVER THE YEARS. AT THE POWOWS WHERE FANCY DANCE REGALIA ARE USED. OFTEN THE DANCER WITH THE COOLEST COSTUME HAS THE EDGE. SO I CAN SEE THAT AS A POSSIBLE INFLUENCE TO ADD SOMETHING IMPRESSIVE FROM ANOTHER TRIBE TO YOUR REGALIA. ANOTHER POSSIBLE INFLUENCE WERE THE EARLY WILD WEST SHOWS UNDOUBTABLE BUFFALOW BILL ADDED THINGS TO TRADITIONAL COSTUMES TO MAKE THEM LOOK MORE SAVAGE OR IMPRESSIVE FOR THE SHOW. MANY PICTURES AND POSTERS FROM THESE SHOWS SHAPED THE IMAGE OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES AND HAD NO MORE ACCURACY IN THEIR PORTRAYEL THAN HOLLYWOOD DID. HERE ARE A FEW PICTURES OF THIS SORT OF BREASTPLATE BEING WORN.
1 TWO PICTURES ARE SOUIX TRIBE
2. PICTURE PONCA CHIEF
3. COMANCHIE WARRIOR
4. SEVERAL SOUIX WARRIORS TAKEN IN 1880
5. UTE TRIBE TAKEN IN 1800S
6. DON'T KNOW THE TRIBE OR DATE TAKEN.

Battara · 8th March 2013, 01:22 AM

Barry I can tell you this much - at today's powwows the Cherokee take on regalia based on Plains garb because they no longer have much of their own anymore.

VANDOO · 8th March 2013, 05:29 AM

ITS TRUE THAT MUCH HAS BEEN LOST TO THE TRIBES ESPECIALLY BY TRIBES WHO LOST EVERYTHING AND WERE MOVED FAR FROM THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS. THIS BEING THE CASE IT IS NO WONDER TRADITIONAL DRESS WOULD BE LOST. I SUSPECT SOME COULD BE LOOKED UP IN OLD MUSEUM COLLECTIONS AND DRAWINGS BUT USUALY A FORIGNER WILL ONLY NOTE WHAT APPEALS TO HIM TO REPRODUCE OR AQUIRE FOR A COLLECTION. SO WHAT THE TRIBE FOUND IMPORTANT MAY BE OVERLOOKED OR HIDDEN BY THE TRIBE AND LOST FROM SUCH COLLECTIONS.
NATIVE AMERICANS FOUGHT FOR THE SAME REASONS AS ALL TRIBAL SOCIETYS AND WENT TO WAR TO WIN AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILY,TRIBE ,REPUTATION AND HUNTING GROUNDS, NOT TO DIE. IF A BATTLE WAS LOST THE DEFEATED ONES TRYED TO GET BACK AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILYS AND HOMES. THE TRIBE MIGHT HAVE TO LEAVE QUICKLY AND LOSE REPUTATION, POSSESIONS AND PART OF THEIR VALUABLE HUNTING GROUNDS. BUT WOULD LIVE TO GROW STRONGER TO TRY AND GET THESE THINGS BACK IN FUTURE. THE CHANTS ABOUT DEATH WERE TO PREPARE THEM SO THEY WOULD NOT BE AFRAID AND DISGRACE THEIR TRIBE OR THEMSELVES BY PUTTING UP A POOR FIGHT OR NONE AT ALL. THE DEFEATED ALWAYS TALKED OF HOW FEIRCE THE WARRIORS OF THE OTHER TRIBE WERE THUS BUILDING THAT TRIBES REPUTATION. THEY STILL CONSIDERED THEMSELVES WARRIORS AND PROMISED TO BECOME STRONGER AND MORE FEIRCE AND TO DO BETTER IN FUTURE. WITH SOME TRIBES THEIR REPUTATION ALONE WAS ENOUGH FOR LESSER TRIBES TO MOVE AND NOT FIGHT WHEN THEY CAME INTO THEIR TERRITORY.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE.
THE VIKINGS WITH THEIR PRAYERS TO ODIN THAT THEY DIE HONORABLY IN BATTLE AND GO TO VALHALLA WAS A WAY TO BANISH FEAR NOT A PRAYER FOR DEATH. THEY TOO WANTED TO RETURN TO THE HARD LAND WHERE THEY LIVED WITH LOOT TO TAKE CARE OF AND CONTINUE TO PROTECT THEIR TRIBE AND FAMILY. IN ALL TIMES ALL RACES OF WARRIORS HAVE PREPARED THEIR MINDS WHEN GOING INTO HARMS WAY. NONE GOES TO DIE BUT TO WIN. THEY BELEAVED IF ONE DOES DIE IT IS BETTER TO DIE FIGHTING AND WITH HONOR AND PERHAPS GO TO VALHALLA THAN TO DIE AFRAID.

fearn · 8th March 2013, 05:29 PM

It is a nice piece, as others have said.

The one note I'd add is one of caution. These items are often worn by the dancers at modern pow-wows, and I've seen all the pieces needed to make a modern one for sale around the dances. This has a legitimate use, in that dancers need to repair their gear or get the materials to enhance their costumes. Unfortunately, it would be fairly easy for someone to use these things to try to fake an antique.

Considering how commonly available the components are, and considering how popular Indian antiques are, I would be very careful about aging any of these pieces from photographs. Not that I'm suspicious of this one per se, but I'm not sure it can be authenticated without handling it.

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2013, 07:50 PM

Interesting views into collectible and commercial aspects. For me, as always, I enjoy learning more on the anthropological and historical perspectives. I very much welcomed the opportunity to view this example and learn more on this remarkable culture, which gratefully continues to gail more well deserved attention and respect.
Thank you Colin for posting this!

7th March 2013, 07:09 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THESE WERE NOT A COMMON PART OF DRESS OWNED OR WORN BY ALL TRIBE MEMBERS. THEY SHOWED WEALTH AND POSITION OF PEOPLE IN THE TRIBE AND WERE EARNED BY THOSE WHO EXCELLED. TRIBAL LIFE DID NOT REWARD THOSE WHO DID NOT DO ANYTHING GOOD FOR THE TRIBE AND THE MORE VALUABLE YOU WERE TO THE TRIBE THE MORE HONOR AND RESPECT YOU RECEIVED. ALONG WITH THAT POSITION CAME THE WEALTH IN THE FORM OF THINGS LIKE THESE BREASTPLATES. TODAY THEY ARE WORN BY THOSE ABLE TO AFFORD THEM TO POWWOWS AND CEREMONIES. I MADE THE MISTAKE OF ASKING AN OSSAGE AT A CEREMONIE IF THE COSTUMES BEING WORN WERE THE ORIGINAL OSAGE TRADITIONAL DRESS OR IF SOME THINGS HAD BEEN INCORPORATED FROM OTHER TRIBES. I WAS TOLD IN NO UNCERTIAN TERMS THAT THESE WERE NOT COSTUMES BUT THE UNIFORMS OF THE WARRIORS OF THE TRIBE AND I COULD CALL THEM REGALIA BUT NOT COSTUMES. END OF DISCUSSION AND I STILL HAD MY HAIR I STILL WONDER IF THE REGALIA HAS STAYED TRUE TO THE TRIBES ORIGINAL FORMS OR IF IT HAS BEEN CHANGED OVER THE YEARS. AT THE POWOWS WHERE FANCY DANCE REGALIA ARE USED. OFTEN THE DANCER WITH THE COOLEST COSTUME HAS THE EDGE. SO I CAN SEE THAT AS A POSSIBLE INFLUENCE TO ADD SOMETHING IMPRESSIVE FROM ANOTHER TRIBE TO YOUR REGALIA. ANOTHER POSSIBLE INFLUENCE WERE THE EARLY WILD WEST SHOWS UNDOUBTABLE BUFFALOW BILL ADDED THINGS TO TRADITIONAL COSTUMES TO MAKE THEM LOOK MORE SAVAGE OR IMPRESSIVE FOR THE SHOW. MANY PICTURES AND POSTERS FROM THESE SHOWS SHAPED THE IMAGE OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES AND HAD NO MORE ACCURACY IN THEIR PORTRAYEL THAN HOLLYWOOD DID. HERE ARE A FEW PICTURES OF THIS SORT OF BREASTPLATE BEING WORN. 1 TWO PICTURES ARE SOUIX TRIBE 2. PICTURE PONCA CHIEF 3. COMANCHIE WARRIOR 4. SEVERAL SOUIX WARRIORS TAKEN IN 1880 5. UTE TRIBE TAKEN IN 1800S 6. DON'T KNOW THE TRIBE OR DATE TAKEN. Attached Images

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7th March 2013, 12:51 PM	#1
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	This topic came up before. These are definitely not armor; they're big pieces of bead work. Look and see if there are any flat places on the bone beads. That is one of the signs my grandmother told me to always look for, although these days they probably fake that as well. Just because you are prepared to die in battle, doesn't mean you won't try to avoid it. We did carry shields after all.

8th March 2013, 01:22 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Barry I can tell you this much - at today's powwows the Cherokee take on regalia based on Plains garb because they no longer have much of their own anymore.

8th March 2013, 05:29 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ITS TRUE THAT MUCH HAS BEEN LOST TO THE TRIBES ESPECIALLY BY TRIBES WHO LOST EVERYTHING AND WERE MOVED FAR FROM THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS. THIS BEING THE CASE IT IS NO WONDER TRADITIONAL DRESS WOULD BE LOST. I SUSPECT SOME COULD BE LOOKED UP IN OLD MUSEUM COLLECTIONS AND DRAWINGS BUT USUALY A FORIGNER WILL ONLY NOTE WHAT APPEALS TO HIM TO REPRODUCE OR AQUIRE FOR A COLLECTION. SO WHAT THE TRIBE FOUND IMPORTANT MAY BE OVERLOOKED OR HIDDEN BY THE TRIBE AND LOST FROM SUCH COLLECTIONS. NATIVE AMERICANS FOUGHT FOR THE SAME REASONS AS ALL TRIBAL SOCIETYS AND WENT TO WAR TO WIN AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILY,TRIBE ,REPUTATION AND HUNTING GROUNDS, NOT TO DIE. IF A BATTLE WAS LOST THE DEFEATED ONES TRYED TO GET BACK AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILYS AND HOMES. THE TRIBE MIGHT HAVE TO LEAVE QUICKLY AND LOSE REPUTATION, POSSESIONS AND PART OF THEIR VALUABLE HUNTING GROUNDS. BUT WOULD LIVE TO GROW STRONGER TO TRY AND GET THESE THINGS BACK IN FUTURE. THE CHANTS ABOUT DEATH WERE TO PREPARE THEM SO THEY WOULD NOT BE AFRAID AND DISGRACE THEIR TRIBE OR THEMSELVES BY PUTTING UP A POOR FIGHT OR NONE AT ALL. THE DEFEATED ALWAYS TALKED OF HOW FEIRCE THE WARRIORS OF THE OTHER TRIBE WERE THUS BUILDING THAT TRIBES REPUTATION. THEY STILL CONSIDERED THEMSELVES WARRIORS AND PROMISED TO BECOME STRONGER AND MORE FEIRCE AND TO DO BETTER IN FUTURE. WITH SOME TRIBES THEIR REPUTATION ALONE WAS ENOUGH FOR LESSER TRIBES TO MOVE AND NOT FIGHT WHEN THEY CAME INTO THEIR TERRITORY. ANOTHER EXAMPLE. THE VIKINGS WITH THEIR PRAYERS TO ODIN THAT THEY DIE HONORABLY IN BATTLE AND GO TO VALHALLA WAS A WAY TO BANISH FEAR NOT A PRAYER FOR DEATH. THEY TOO WANTED TO RETURN TO THE HARD LAND WHERE THEY LIVED WITH LOOT TO TAKE CARE OF AND CONTINUE TO PROTECT THEIR TRIBE AND FAMILY. IN ALL TIMES ALL RACES OF WARRIORS HAVE PREPARED THEIR MINDS WHEN GOING INTO HARMS WAY. NONE GOES TO DIE BUT TO WIN. THEY BELEAVED IF ONE DOES DIE IT IS BETTER TO DIE FIGHTING AND WITH HONOR AND PERHAPS GO TO VALHALLA THAN TO DIE AFRAID.

8th March 2013, 05:29 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	It is a nice piece, as others have said. The one note I'd add is one of caution. These items are often worn by the dancers at modern pow-wows, and I've seen all the pieces needed to make a modern one for sale around the dances. This has a legitimate use, in that dancers need to repair their gear or get the materials to enhance their costumes. Unfortunately, it would be fairly easy for someone to use these things to try to fake an antique. Considering how commonly available the components are, and considering how popular Indian antiques are, I would be very careful about aging any of these pieces from photographs. Not that I'm suspicious of this one per se, but I'm not sure it can be authenticated without handling it. Best, F

8th March 2013, 07:50 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Interesting views into collectible and commercial aspects. For me, as always, I enjoy learning more on the anthropological and historical perspectives. I very much welcomed the opportunity to view this example and learn more on this remarkable culture, which gratefully continues to gail more well deserved attention and respect. Thank you Colin for posting this!