Blacksmith made ? sword for I.D. and comment

CutlassCollector · 18th February 2013, 01:30 PM

I have to admit I did not pick up on the diamond cross section, which would make it unlikely to be made by a US blacksmith of the period, who has suddenly been required to produce weapons for the revolution - they would I'm sure have stuck to a flat blade.
The majority of cutlasses are not normally double edged as there is not much finesse required in a sailor untrained in swordsmanship. If you are making a cutlass, a short sharp slashing club is what you're aiming for. So again I don't think a US blacksmith or cutler would have gone for double edge.

So this tends to lend support to the Spanish rather than my original thought of American colonial. Good find though and interesting thread.
CC.

ps. I know lots of swords were co-opted for use at sea but I can only think of one regulation cutlass made double edged - a short lived British variant from mid 19thC.

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2013, 04:45 PM

I think that the DE dragoon type blades are the result of trade blade or supply 'availability' rather than a specifically designed dynamic for these weapons. That was very much the case with three bar 'sabre' type hilts mounted with 'broadsword' blades in Mexico around the 1820s and possibly somewhat earlier. The 'dragoon' blades had been coming in from Spain since the 1770s, many if not most often had the 'draw me not without reason......' motto, and these DE blades were often reused.
Many of these blades saw many refurbishings, were actually found in some swords during the Revolutionary War' , and more often occurred in Mexican officers swords during the American war with Mexico (1846). These type blades in variation of course, turned up yet again during the Civil War, in this case often with Confederate officers who had acquired them presumably during the Mexican War (Custer acquired one allegedly from one of these officers).

The 'rounded tip' on blades is a feature favored for slashing cuts, seen on broadswords of Tuareg etc. in North Africa, and had been used earlier on sabre blades in many cases in Europe. As mentioned, these DE blades show up on the Moroccan sabres known as nimchas, and I recall often being surprised to see a 'broadsword' blade on what is ostensibly thought of as a SE sabre. This was simply because the blades were 'available' through trade.

M ELEY · 18th February 2013, 08:06 PM

Excellent catch on the hexagonal blade shape, Jim! I was also patiently waiting for the Master of the House to return (

). This is your expertise, by far. The rounded tip of the blade had caught my attention, but I hadn't thought of the whole picture until you nailed it. 'Machinist' also deserves a tip of the hat. I currently have two Spanish swords with rounded tips. One is a classic bilbo type and the other, an espada with a hilt like #1 in your picture, Jim, but with a straight, double edged blade. I'm told that other European countries also, as you noted, used rounded tips on their broadswords. Colin, I am 100% with Jim on conservation. A mild cleaning is best on these type swords. Again, an excellent find!

P.S. Jim, what is the name of the volume by Adams? Is it an article from Man-at-Arms, or a book by him? I'd like to track it down. Thanks!

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2013, 05:35 PM

Thanks so much Mark! I have sent you a PM.

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18th February 2013, 01:30 PM	#1
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	I have to admit I did not pick up on the diamond cross section, which would make it unlikely to be made by a US blacksmith of the period, who has suddenly been required to produce weapons for the revolution - they would I'm sure have stuck to a flat blade. The majority of cutlasses are not normally double edged as there is not much finesse required in a sailor untrained in swordsmanship. If you are making a cutlass, a short sharp slashing club is what you're aiming for. So again I don't think a US blacksmith or cutler would have gone for double edge. So this tends to lend support to the Spanish rather than my original thought of American colonial. Good find though and interesting thread. CC. ps. I know lots of swords were co-opted for use at sea but I can only think of one regulation cutlass made double edged - a short lived British variant from mid 19thC.

18th February 2013, 04:45 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I think that the DE dragoon type blades are the result of trade blade or supply 'availability' rather than a specifically designed dynamic for these weapons. That was very much the case with three bar 'sabre' type hilts mounted with 'broadsword' blades in Mexico around the 1820s and possibly somewhat earlier. The 'dragoon' blades had been coming in from Spain since the 1770s, many if not most often had the 'draw me not without reason......' motto, and these DE blades were often reused. Many of these blades saw many refurbishings, were actually found in some swords during the Revolutionary War' , and more often occurred in Mexican officers swords during the American war with Mexico (1846). These type blades in variation of course, turned up yet again during the Civil War, in this case often with Confederate officers who had acquired them presumably during the Mexican War (Custer acquired one allegedly from one of these officers). The 'rounded tip' on blades is a feature favored for slashing cuts, seen on broadswords of Tuareg etc. in North Africa, and had been used earlier on sabre blades in many cases in Europe. As mentioned, these DE blades show up on the Moroccan sabres known as nimchas, and I recall often being surprised to see a 'broadsword' blade on what is ostensibly thought of as a SE sabre. This was simply because the blades were 'available' through trade.

18th February 2013, 08:06 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Excellent catch on the hexagonal blade shape, Jim! I was also patiently waiting for the Master of the House to return ( ). This is your expertise, by far. The rounded tip of the blade had caught my attention, but I hadn't thought of the whole picture until you nailed it. 'Machinist' also deserves a tip of the hat. I currently have two Spanish swords with rounded tips. One is a classic bilbo type and the other, an espada with a hilt like #1 in your picture, Jim, but with a straight, double edged blade. I'm told that other European countries also, as you noted, used rounded tips on their broadswords. Colin, I am 100% with Jim on conservation. A mild cleaning is best on these type swords. Again, an excellent find! P.S. Jim, what is the name of the volume by Adams? Is it an article from Man-at-Arms, or a book by him? I'd like to track it down. Thanks!

19th February 2013, 05:35 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks so much Mark! I have sent you a PM.