Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Ibrahiim,

Not holding any author current or past at fault as they often have more time and want than most but Ingrams make one small single passge in passing with no other great attention to any detail about the swords he saw or any other reference to the swords from the regions applications in fighting. Because he did not write of fighting which he may not have ben exposed to or didn't want to write about should not be grounds for absolute reasoning that these swords were in the day just dance swords.

By his own admission it reached chaotic frantic levels and it is distinctly possible there were also curved swords being used in the dance fray, possiblely just most mentioned because the straight sword was so common and worn by many that a curved one were and there was overlooked.

Please see my views in your new threads on curved vs straight.

Regards

Gavin

Salaams Gavin... Cant add much to that... I have disagreed with most reports by most Europeans but Ingram to me was solid and as Secretary to the Zanzibar Ruler I found his reports accurate and interesting especially on his note about the difference between Omani and Zanzibaris dancing with weapons etc... I have no doubt that curved weapons were used for absolute sure they were..as they are also used today... Its just that the straight Omani Sayf has never been in a fight because it is the traditional dancing sword.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Gavin... Cant add much to that... I have disagreed with most reports by most Europeans but Ingram to me was solid and as Secretary to the Zanzibar Ruler I found his reports accurate and interesting especially on his note about the difference between Omani and Zanzibaris dancing with weapons etc... I have no doubt that curved weapons were used for absolute sure they were..as they are also used today... Its just that the straight Omani Sayf has never been in a fight because it is the traditional dancing sword.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Dear Ibrahiim,

I must continue to probe, it is the essence of learning and seeking truth. I ask, but why is the modern straight sword as it is seen today the traditional dancing sword, how did it become so.

Is it because the modern traditional dancing sword today is a tribute to the straight sword of forefathers who used it for not only fighting but in dance in which skills were honed, skills honoured and a ritual bonding with brothers was made... This is where time has passed with nothing yet found recorded about why the straight sword was chosen for using in dance in the modern age we live in.
I suggest because the straight sword in the dress discussed was the common but important fighting sword of the day being flexible or not, used in dance and combat but not isolated to either. This I feel is why it become the ritual dance item today....But still lots more work is required and you are progressing the study along with avenues open for others to present known research on the subject.

Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Dear Ibrahiim,

I must continue to probe, it is the essence of learning and seeking truth. I ask, but why is the modern straight sword as it is seen today the traditional dancing sword, how did it become so.

Is it because the modern traditional dancing sword today is a tribute to the straight sword of forefathers who used it for not only fighting but in dance in which skills were honed, skills honoured and a ritual bonding with brothers was made... This is where time has passed with nothing yet found recorded about why the straight sword was chosen for using in dance in the modern age we live in.
I suggest because the straight sword in the dress discussed was the common but important fighting sword of the day being flexible or not, used in dance and combat but not isolated to either. This I feel is why it become the ritual dance item today....But still lots more work is required and you are progressing the study along with avenues open for others to present known research on the subject.

Regards

Gavin

Salaams Gavin. I believe it developed as a style from the Old Battle Sword which I have compared its general design with. In both cases, essentially, a two edged, straight, sharp, spatulate tipped blade and with a hilt in the Islamic arch shape. To assign the Terrs Buckler Shield was simply an extension of the honorary nature of the pageantry sword... relating it further to the tradition in the sword dance; The Razha within the Funoon Genre of sword dance, mimic contest, music and poetry and handed down from day 1. (751 ad)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim. Thanks for the link to the modern dress on the Omani Battle Sword. I have taken the liberty to repost one of your pics to show how they look....
QUESTION....Do you have an irrefutible link to information that this is how these looked in the past?......or is this your impression of how they would have looked? Any photos I have seen of these swords has shown them with bare metal hilts.
The other comment which has appeared often in these threads is the possible reuse of rhino sword hilts for jambiyas. I would have thought that sword hilts would not be big enough to refashion into handles for jambiya.

Anyway...on to the subject of my original question which was to try and find out what, if any hilt covering was on the Yemeni/Saudi swords shown by SWEDEGREEN.

I read with interest your new "take" on these swords, even to suggest that they just might be a "genuine" type, rather than (as you put it) some knocked up backyard item.
There are "quite a few" of these around (as there are Omani Saifs) and it would be reasonable to assume that more would be in their country of origin than elsewhere. The four shown above, it is stated, came out of Yemen in the 1960s, and I have one on the way to me which also came from there about the same time. The actual year in this case was 1963, and I have well provenanced details of who bought it out.
Now to the scabbards. IF these were made as "tourist" items, then why would the maker bother to make a nice scabbard and then "distress" it so that it looked old. Elsewhere in this discussion on bedouin swords and the like, it has been stated that tourism as we know it today, was in its infancy in Arabia in the 1960s and the modern "skills" of aging to mislead, would not in my opinion have been thought of, or at least not widely practiced.

So......do we have a hitherto "unknown", or at least "undiscussed" line of swords? It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads.
Further to my comment above, I have posted some pics of the sword which is on the way to me. These are sellers pics but they show a couple of interesting features. This sword has silver decoration and the drag of the scabbard is well worn skin of some sort....purported to be lion, but I think more likely goat or suchlike. I really think it most unlikely that any maker would bother to use skin and then "distress" it just to fool an unwitting buyer.

Comments Gentlemen please

This sword has now arrived, and I can make further comment to what I had suggested above.
1.The skin used for the drag is not goat in my opinion, and could very well be lion as was suggested by the seller, as the remaining hair is quite thick. ....not like goat hair at all, which is much finer.
2.The fitting of scabbard to hilt is the same method as in Swedegreen's swords.....wooden tongue sliding inside the silver dressing of the hilt.
3. The hilt itself is impossible to grip securely so I would have thought that there was originally some sort of covering. Unless the users hands were VERY small the sword would slip easily in use.

Other than the above observations, the whole shows good age, and IMHO has not been artificially aged in any way... Why would one cover the scabbard with skin and then rub most of the hair off??

Regards Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

This sword has now arrived, and I can make further comment to what I had suggested above.
1.The skin used for the drag is not goat in my opinion, and could very well be lion as was suggested by the seller, as the remaining hair is quite thick. ....not like goat hair at all, which is much finer.
2.The fitting of scabbard to hilt is the same method as in Swedegreen's swords.....wooden tongue sliding inside the silver dressing of the hilt.
3. The hilt itself is impossible to grip securely so I would have thought that there was originally some sort of covering. Unless the users hands were VERY small the sword would slip easily in use.

Other than the above observations, the whole shows good age, and IMHO has not been artificially aged in any way... Why would one cover the scabbard with skin and then rub most of the hair off??

Regards Stu

Salaams. The Yemeni Sword. (Long Hilt.)

This sword has nothing to do with the Yemeni items tuned up with backyard hilts to sell to tourists. That is not to say that it isn't a sword that tourists buy since many are sitting in Muscats Muttrah souk and being bought by tourists... The two, however, belong to different kettles of fish.

This sword which is related to the Ottoman type in the Istanbul Military Museum (thus Mamluke and Abbassiid) is attributed to Yemeni style of metalic longhilt in the general family of Red Sea Variants I have mentioned many times previously. It appears as a leftover copied design from Ottoman garrisons into the Yemeni armouries (probably "Askeri" equivalent palace guard or militia swords) I would suggest that these belong in the southern part of what is now Saudi Arabia but was Yemen pre about 1920. They ''seem'' to be late copies perhaps mid 18th to mid 19th C going by the blades and hilt finish. Being likely contenders of Yemeni manufacture I would suspect Hadramaut as the blade construction point... or even the other side of the water in Sudan or Ethiopia even? The blade style could conceivably have been supplied completely from late Ottoman sources. There is one picture of a man holding one such blade below... and that is on an Ottoman ~ Mamluke Hilt. Does your blade also compare with that?

They may be distantly related to the Wallace style but that is a huge step and further they may have some bearing upon the Omani longhilts both in the curved ( The Omani Kattara) and straight (The Omani Sayf) variety of blades now correctly discussed under their own separate banners.

I have seen several rehilted Ethiopian (German) blades on these hilts and have to report that most blades arrive into Muscat Souk without scabbards from Sanaa. The opener pictures at #1 puts that right immediately and the weapons can be seen as made deliberately as one unit along with the scabbard style. The blades in the Yemeni versions are not flexible other than a few inches either way.

The skin may be goat. It may also be wolf... which is far more likely as there was little credibility in decorating a scabbard with a goat piece. Wolf is the more likely from the talismanic viewpoint.

The hilt as you point out is far too thin to have no cover on it and the metal, being iron, would need to be covered since it attracts evil.

If my theory is correct these are indeed a separate breed of Sword and since they were probably militia weapons they are thus likely to be swords in the proper sense and this fact is firmly supported by the Istanbul and Yemeni museum pictures.

More interestingly they may be the trigger that influenced the design style in what I have earmarked as 18/19th C Omani Kattara and Sayf variants on long hilts since that region (specifically) was closely linked to sea trade with Muscat-Zanzibar and it was from Oman that they took their design for one of their Jambias (from either the Muscat and / or The Royal Khanjar style) in what I believe was the same period about 1744 to 1850.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim,
The blade does NOT resemble that shown above. The single SHALLOW fuller more resembles that in Swedegreen's pic at #1 (top sword). The one in the above pic appears deep and narrow rather than broad and shallow.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim,
The blade does NOT resemble that shown above. The single SHALLOW fuller more resembles that in Swedegreen's pic at #1 (top sword). The one in the above pic appears deep and narrow rather than broad and shallow.
Stu

Salaams, It would be an advantage to show the blade would it not? I mean deep and shallow, broad and narrow are hardly indicative when a picture would be highly beneficial.. Do you think it looks like this one (The long hilted Yemeni Sword ) ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, It would be an advantage to show the blade would it not? I mean deep and shallow, broad and narrow are hardly indicative when a picture would be highly beneficial.. Do you think it looks like this one (The long hilted Yemeni Sword ) ?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Here is a pic of the fuller. The blade is 41mm (1 5/8") wide at the hilt and 5mm (3/16") thick. Flexibility is as one would expect for a combat sword.
Regards Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams. Well we are nearly there... can you show the entire blade so that normal Forum inspection may be made and so the length of the fuller and blade tip etc. can be viewed ?

I'm not sure what you are implying with your flexibility statement ...For example; Are you saying that because it's flexible it makes it a combat sword? or its lack of flexibility? How much flex does it have about 2inch or a more full 90 degrees? These are normally quite stiff blades with a few inches of flex not more.

Personally I think that this is a separate Yemeni breed and that it was a combat sword, however, I think we first have to decide what level of flexibility these swords have and in denoting what the essential blade parameters are before embarking on that equation. What you may have is a Red Sea blade stuck on a Yemeni Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams. Well we are nearly there... can you show the entire blade so that normal Forum inspection may be made and so the length of the fuller and blade tip etc. can be viewed ?

I'm not sure what you are implying with your flexibility statement ...For example; Are you saying that because it's flexible it makes it a combat sword? or its lack of flexibility? How much flex does it have about 2inch or a more full 90 degrees? These are normally quite stiff blades with a few inches of flex not more.

Personally I think that this is a separate Yemeni breed and that it was a combat sword, however, I think we first have to decide what level of flexibility these swords have and in denoting what the essential blade parameters are before embarking on that equation. What you may have is a Red Sea blade stuck on a Yemeni Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

The blade is, as I said, what one would expect from a "combat" blade---about 2"....certainly not something that would wave around in combat. Your comment about 90 degrees suggests to me something so flimsy that it would be next to useless for fighting.
Attached is a full length pic of the blade. The fuller tapers out to almost nothing about 2" back from the tip. As you can see, the tip of the double edged blade has probably been reshaped at some stage in its life, perhaps due to chipping. I am not sure if I should have this reshaped, or leave it as it is.
As an aside to the blade, I attach a further pic of the hilt. On investigation, I found that the silver collar had slipped up and was covering further hilt decoration. The blade now fits the scabbard correctly.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

The blade is, as I said, what one would expect from a "combat" blade---about 2"....certainly not something that would wave around in combat. Your comment about 90 degrees suggests to me something so flimsy that it would be next to useless for fighting.
Attached is a full length pic of the blade. The fuller tapers out to almost nothing about 2" back from the tip. As you can see, the tip of the double edged blade has probably been reshaped at some stage in its life, perhaps due to chipping. I am not sure if I should have this reshaped, or leave it as it is.
As an aside to the blade, I attach a further pic of the hilt. On investigation, I found that the silver collar had slipped up and was covering further hilt decoration. The blade now fits the scabbard correctly.

Salaams kahnjar1 Yes you say that and whereas I agree completely that the stiff blade format we see here is a fighting blade in the same way that I agree the Omani Battle Sword is also...and conversely the Omani Sayf Dancing blade is not... I have to say that others will come in and say blade flexibility owes nothing to fighting prowess as a sword necessarily...

My example would be the owner of the Shotley Bridge factory who attended an exhibition with a blade furled up inside his top hat and astonished onlookers when he unleashed it before their very eyes! Having handled a lot of these swords I have to say that they are all in the region of stiff 2 inch or so flexibility and in the fighting sword frame...though I havent seen a shield ? presumably a buckler since these are spatulate tipped chopping action blades. I have to err caution however, since this is well outside my area of operations and nothing would surprise me ... Who knows? they could be another pageantry blade !

That said, the picture is pretty clear; This appears to be linked in style to the original broadswords in Military Museums in both Istanbul and Yemen. It is thus likely to be rooted in history to Ottoman, therefor Mamluke and Abbassiid weaponry. When this was manufactured is still open to conjecture but I suggest an 18/19th C ticket.

There is, I suggest, the likelihood of an indirect link with the style of hilt to the Omani Dancing Sayf and Omani Curved Kattara within the timeframe perhaps related to the advent of the Al Busaiidi Dynasty commencing in 1744. (or thereabouts) and caused by intensive trade between the two regions.

Note on silver collar: Not seen one of these on this style before... Do you think it belongs to the sword or the scabbard? I think the scabbard.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

The blade is, as I said, what one would expect from a "combat" blade---about 2"....certainly not something that would wave around in combat. Your comment about 90 degrees suggests to me something so flimsy that it would be next to useless for fighting.
Attached is a full length pic of the blade. The fuller tapers out to almost nothing about 2" back from the tip. As you can see, the tip of the double edged blade has probably been reshaped at some stage in its life, perhaps due to chipping. I am not sure if I should have this reshaped, or leave it as it is.
As an aside to the blade, I attach a further pic of the hilt. On investigation, I found that the silver collar had slipped up and was covering further hilt decoration. The blade now fits the scabbard correctly.

Nice piece Stu! I really like how it looks. Just leave the tip as is - adds character. It is a great blade and the scabbard is really nice with the color that it adds to the piece.

Since I've never handled one of these, I'm rather curious how one would actually use it. You described the handle as being very slippery and impossible to grip without some covering. Even if it was covered, I would imagine the balance is pretty awkward due to the lack of a pommel? I don't mean any of this in a negative way I'm genuinely curious!

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim......Re the silver collar. Not likely to have been part of the scabbard as it is far too small to fit. It does however fit snugly onto the hilt.

Iain..... Your comment re the blade is noted and I intend to leave it as is.
The hilt is still an open book, but I believe that there was originally a leather?? covering of some sort. Even then the hilt would be quite thin to grip, BUT....we are perhaps missing something here.
I use as an example, 19th Century British Military Uniforms, which, for the 20th/21st c man are far too small to wear, or even in some cases to put on. Obviously the "modern" man is of bigger stature, so it would be reasonable to assume, also has much larger hands than the 19th c "version". That being the case, maybe the hilt is NOT too small after all. I do not have evidence of Arabian stature in the 19th c, but I do know that modern Asian races are considerably smaller than the average European, and have MUCH smaller hands.
Perhaps this is the answer??
Stu

[Iain]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim......Re the silver collar. Not likely to have been part of the scabbard as it is far too small to fit. It does however fit snugly onto the hilt.

Iain..... Your comment re the blade is noted and I intend to leave it as is.
The hilt is still an open book, but I believe that there was originally a leather?? covering of some sort. Even then the hilt would be quite thin to grip, BUT....we are perhaps missing something here.
I use as an example, 19th Century British Military Uniforms, which, for the 20th/21st c man are far too small to wear, or even in some cases to put on. Obviously the "modern" man is of bigger stature, so it would be reasonable to assume, also has much larger hands than the 19th c "version". That being the case, maybe the hilt is NOT too small after all. I do not have evidence of Arabian stature in the 19th c, but I do know that modern Asian races are considerably smaller than the average European, and have MUCH smaller hands.
Perhaps this is the answer??
Stu

Hi Stu,

Makes sense. I was wondering not just about the size but the balance. Perhaps its just a trick of the photos but the balance looks like it would be very forward of the guard? Of course I always figure that ethnographic weapons that feel awkward usually just means we don't know how to hold them right!
No doubt the users of the period had no issues!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim......Re the silver collar. Not likely to have been part of the scabbard as it is far too small to fit. It does however fit snugly onto the hilt.

Iain..... Your comment re the blade is noted and I intend to leave it as is.
The hilt is still an open book, but I believe that there was originally a leather?? covering of some sort. Even then the hilt would be quite thin to grip, BUT....we are perhaps missing something here.
I use as an example, 19th Century British Military Uniforms, which, for the 20th/21st c man are far too small to wear, or even in some cases to put on. Obviously the "modern" man is of bigger stature, so it would be reasonable to assume, also has much larger hands than the 19th c "version". That being the case, maybe the hilt is NOT too small after all. I do not have evidence of Arabian stature in the 19th c, but I do know that modern Asian races are considerably smaller than the average European, and have MUCH smaller hands.
Perhaps this is the answer??
Stu

Salaams Khanjar 1. I think the Omanis and Yemenis were very small except in the case of the big fishermen and those of African stock. There is even a region in Oman which was famous for giants. (Bahla)

In terms of a leather wrap I suggest that it could be done in such a way that it forms a conical grip..which may indicate the potential link as the origin of both the Omani long hilts.

There is no way that I can see the hilt remaining metal because Iron attracts evil... and the grip would be useless. Wrapped in leather; not a problem as the grip would be solid, firm, strengthen the hilt and cover the iron.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Hello Khanjar 1,

This is all very intriguing, I have been interested in Arabian weapons for many years and can't really remember seeing a "SwedeGreen" type until this post, yet Ibrahim says South Arabia is awash with them!

I offer the following observations or speculations, some of which I realise are contradictory;-

1, The drag on your scabbard could be from a hyena. Bertram Thomas describes shooting them in the Qarra mountains.
2, When I first saw SwedeGreen's swords I wondered how the hits were made; presumably from sheets of steel or iron, rather than drawn out from an ingot, and I imagine the seams where the hilt is attached to the "block" would be difficult to do on an anvil and would require some form of welding. i.e a type of hilt that could only be relatively modern.
3, When I saw your sword I wondered whether or not these iron or steel hilts were originally covered overall in silver, (like the hilt in the Wallace collection and this one. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...pons-and-armour ) which has since been stripped off. If this were so it would answer a lot of questions. This speculation could apply to all these iron hilted swords.
4, Thus the decoration on your sword could have been made after the original silver was removed and the collar on your sword, an old, half-hearted attempt to restore it's former glory.

Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Hello Khanjar 1,

This is all very intriguing, I have been interested in Arabian weapons for many years and can't really remember seeing a "SwedeGreen" type until this post, yet Ibrahim says South Arabia is awash with them!

I offer the following observations or speculations, some of which I realise are contradictory;-

1, The drag on your scabbard could be from a hyena. Bertram Thomas describes shooting them in the Qarra mountains.
2, When I first saw SwedeGreen's swords I wondered how the hits were made; presumably from sheets of steel or iron, rather than drawn out from an ingot, and I imagine the seams where the hilt is attached to the "block" would be difficult to do on an anvil and would require some form of welding. i.e a type of hilt that could only be relatively modern.
3, When I saw your sword I wondered whether or not these iron or steel hilts were originally covered overall in silver, (like the hilt in the Wallace collection and this one. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...pons-and-armour ) which has since been stripped off. If this were so it would answer a lot of questions. This speculation could apply to all these iron hilted swords.
4, Thus the decoration on your sword could have bee made after the original silver was removed and the collar on your sword, an old, half-hearted attempt to restore it's further glory.

Regards
Richard

Salaams Richard~ Can you point me to the quote where I said that?... I may have said the Souk in Muttrah is awash with them because it is... but I dont think I said South Arabia.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Sorry Ibrahiim,
I agree you did not say South Arabia was "awash" with them. But you did say there were dozens in the Muscat soukhs and they were common in Sanaa. This was an attempt to paraphase with exaggeration to highlight my surprise at finding these are quite common.
Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Sorry Ibrahiim,
I agree you did not say South Arabia was "awash" with them. But you did say there were dozens in the Muscat soukhs and they were common in Sanaa. This was an attempt to paraphase with exaggeration to highlight my surprise at finding these are quite common.
Regards
Richard

Salaams Richard G... Ah that was the souk in Muttrah ... I had about 20 of them lined up there but couldnt decide to take any but they told me they had got them in Sanaa...or through a Sanaa trader. The project weapon indeed looks like its got Hyena wrapped about the base. I dont know enough about these scabbards and to what extent the strange collar is original but it may be... I just cant imagine going in to bat with a soft silver content sleeve as an extension of the iron cuff... I remain puzzled about that .
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Stu,

Makes sense. I was wondering not just about the size but the balance. Perhaps its just a trick of the photos but the balance looks like it would be very forward of the guard? Of course I always figure that ethnographic weapons that feel awkward usually just means we don't know how to hold them right!
No doubt the users of the period had no issues!

Sorry Iain, Missed that bit about balance. Anyway the point of balance is 4" below the silver collar,.....11" from the MIDDLE of the grip. The balance point is close to that of other swords I have....within about 1 1/2".
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Hello Khanjar 1,

This is all very intriguing, I have been interested in Arabian weapons for many years and can't really remember seeing a "SwedeGreen" type until this post, yet Ibrahim says South Arabia is awash with them!

I offer the following observations or speculations, some of which I realise are contradictory;-

1, The drag on your scabbard could be from a hyena. Bertram Thomas describes shooting them in the Qarra mountains.
2, When I first saw SwedeGreen's swords I wondered how the hits were made; presumably from sheets of steel or iron, rather than drawn out from an ingot, and I imagine the seams where the hilt is attached to the "block" would be difficult to do on an anvil and would require some form of welding. i.e a type of hilt that could only be relatively modern.
3, When I saw your sword I wondered whether or not these iron or steel hilts were originally covered overall in silver, (like the hilt in the Wallace collection and this one. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...pons-and-armour ) which has since been stripped off. If this were so it would answer a lot of questions. This speculation could apply to all these iron hilted swords.
4, Thus the decoration on your sword could have been made after the original silver was removed and the collar on your sword, an old, half-hearted attempt to restore it's former glory.

Regards
Richard

Hi Richard,
1>The drag COULD be Hyena, but I am no expert on skins so that will have to remain unknown for now.
2>Welding has been around for centuries----blacksmith forges etc. My guess is hot metal beaten over a wooden core. NO SIGN OF MODERN TYPE WELDING.
3>Not likely I suspect though obviously one can not be certain.......
4>Doubt it very much...I personally think these are NOT swords of the rich, but probably of lower classes.....I would bet the decoration was always there. Even though none appears on Swedegreens swords, it does on some of those shown by others in this thread.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Richard G... Ah that was the souk in Muttrah ... I had about 20 of them lined up there but couldnt decide to take any but they told me they had got them in Sanaa...or through a Sanaa trader. The project weapon indeed looks like its got Hyena wrapped about the base. I dont know enough about these scabbards and to what extent the strange collar is original but it may be... I just cant imagine going in to bat with a soft silver content sleeve as an extension of the iron cuff... I remain puzzled about that .
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim. I agree with your comment about the silver collar being fragile in combat, but we are of course assuming that it was always there. My thinking is that it was possibly added later, perhaps to embellish the sword for dress wear rather than combat use. Either way, it obviously belongs to the particlar hilt, as it fits snugly. As you will be aware, many swords are "dressed up" so that they look impressive when worn.
Stu

[Iain]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Sorry Iain, Missed that bit about balance. Anyway the point of balance is 4" below the silver collar,.....11" from the MIDDLE of the grip. The balance point is close to that of other swords I have....within about 1 1/2".
Stu

Hi Stu, thanks, exactly what I wanted to know. Seems really far out, but if its consistent with others it must have simply been the norm for this type.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim. I agree with your comment about the silver collar being fragile in combat, but we are of course assuming that it was always there. My thinking is that it was possibly added later, perhaps to embellish the sword for dress wear rather than combat use. Either way, it obviously belongs to the particlar hilt, as it fits snugly. As you will be aware, many swords are "dressed up" so that they look impressive when worn.
Stu

Salaams kahnjar1 Yes agreed on the later addition of the silver collar adornment which is completely in keeping with add-ons to weapons of the region.

On reflection it could simply be a clever later add-on to better secure the sword in its scabbard.

I think the region is the area in Saudia that was once Yemen and from which Habaabi (the main city) gives its name to the dagger "The Habaabi". The main port is Jazzan. From the viewpoint of Ethnographic Arms I think this region is timelocked.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1 Yes agreed on the later addition of the silver collar adornment which is completely in keeping with add-ons to weapons of the region.

On reflection it could simply be a clever later add-on to better secure the sword in its scabbard.

I think the region is the area in Saudia that was once Yemen and from which Habaabi (the main city) gives its name to the dagger "The Habaabi". The main port is Jazzan. From the viewpoint of Ethnographic Arms I think this region is timelocked.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim, I note that you have refered to Habaabi as a region/city a number of times in various posts you have made.
Can you please post a map showing this region/city, as any time I have GOOGLEd it, there is no reference to any such place.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim, I note that you have refered to Habaabi as a region/city a number of times in various posts you have made.
Can you please post a map showing this region/city, as any time I have GOOGLEd it, there is no reference to any such place.
Stu

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ It was indeed a very tricky place to pin down not least because of the spurious indicators on the web and its seemingly mythical situation, however, it is in fact south west of Ta' izz between there and the Red Sea coast. I will make that very clear it is in Yemen. Hababi city appears to have given its name to the dagger of an extensive region which after about 1920 was incorporated into Saudi Arabia (The Asir border region etc) Clearly the whole region now stradles both borders ..The map of the region is at http://mapcarta.com/12505012 but there is very little detail other than some stuff I posted on The Omani Khanjar site and which I have now corrected.
I believe Jazan was a major contributor to Muscat/ Yemen / Arabia trade in history and was a key stop on the trade route to Zanzibar and Africa. Moreover it would have been a major drop off point connecting to the massive camel trains going north since the prevailing almost 24/7 and year round winds prevailed from almost due North preventing sailing ships from accessing direct to Ports in the North.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ It was indeed a very tricky place to pin down not least because of the spurious indicators on the web and its seemingly mythical situation, however, it is in fact south west of Ta' izz between there and the Red Sea coast. I will make that very clear it is in Yemen. Hababi city appears to have given its name to the dagger of an extensive region which after about 1920 was incorporated into Saudi Arabia (The Asir border region etc) Clearly the whole region now stradles both borders ..The map of the region is at http://mapcarta.com/12505012 but there is very little detail other than some stuff I posted on The Omani Khanjar site and which I have now corrected.
I believe Jazan was a major contributor to Muscat/ Yemen / Arabia trade in history and was a key stop on the trade route to Zanzibar and Africa. Moreover it would have been a major drop off point connecting to the massive camel trains going north since the prevailing almost 24/7 and year round winds prevailed from almost due North preventing sailing ships from accessing direct to Ports in the North.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

......so Al Hababi is somewhat of a MYTHICAL place then ?? To keep THIS thread on line, I have posted a new thread....Saudia Jambia for Identification.... This item was previously identified by you as Habaabi.
Stu

[David]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim, I note that you have refered to Habaabi as a region/city a number of times in various posts you have made.
Can you please post a map showing this region/city, as any time I have GOOGLEd it, there is no reference to any such place.
Stu

There is a city apparently called Al Hababi SW of Ta'izz. Is this the place you refer to?
http://www.newstrackindia.com/inform...-al-hababi.htm

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David

There is a city apparently called Al Hababi SW of Ta'izz. Is this the place you refer to?
http://www.newstrackindia.com/inform...-al-hababi.htm

....maybe...... but I find it interesting that there appears to be no road or ACTUAL place named as per other nearby towns.....
I find it difficult to believe that an apparently non named town has given its name to a particular dagger style........but then I am not a resident of the area.....
Ibrahiim himself expresses doubt as to the actual placement of the town/city....

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

......so Al Hababi is somewhat of a MYTHICAL place then ?? To keep THIS thread on line, I have posted a new thread....Saudia Jambia for Identification.... This item was previously identified by you as Habaabi.
Stu

Salaams kahnjar1,
No I dont express doubts to its existence... and No it exists ...see the map. http://mapcarta.com/12505012 and there are now others at recent posts .. The items (daggers and I don't know what they call them down there I assume Jambia) are called Habaabi in Oman with a long aa ... from the area covered by the city of Hababi... and which appears to encompass a large swathe of the territory even up to the ASIR and on both sides of the border; Saudia and Yemen. Certainly that entire area in the heel of the Yemen would have been trading via the Red Sea ports with Oman and Zanzibar etc.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.