Sundanga from Sulawesi for comment

[Sajen]

Today I received my new sword. I am nearly sure that it is a sudanga from Makassar. Look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sulawesi, a example from Marco and here a example from Bill Marsh: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sulawesi
Here some first fast taken pictures, will post more at weekend.
The silver end cap of the scabbard is missing as well some bindings from the rotan bindings. The silver handle has a small swassa ring and I think that the blade has a coating with some sort of clear varnish.
I am curious what you think about the sword and if you agree that it is a sudanga from Makassar.

[Battara]

Interesting piece. Like the metal hilt - not too often seen. What is the material (hard to tell from the photos)?

[Lew]

Detlef

Very nice . Is the hilt silver if so try using a silver polishing cloth on it. Would love to see the embossing. Actually was able to make it out what a beautiful hilt

[VVV]

Nice sword Detlef!

I would also place it as Makassar.

Michael

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

Interesting piece. Like the metal hilt - not too often seen. What is the material (hard to tell from the photos)?

Hello Jose, the hilt seems to be from white metal (german silver ?) and silver plated. The ring seems to be from swassa.
Here some additional pictures by daylight without flash.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Lew

Detlef

Very nice . Is the hilt silver if so try using a silver polishing cloth on it. Would love to see the embossing. Actually was able to make it out what a beautiful hilt

Thank you Lew, yesterday I haven't have the time to give the hilt a polishing. Now it is done, see the pictures in up.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by VVV

Nice sword Detlef!

I would also place it as Makassar.

Michael

Hello Michael, I am sure we are correct. Here what Sipakatuo have written: "Sudanga the same as Kelewang/Parang. Makassar and Bugis people called Sudanga or Alameng. Sudanga wear by Chieftain or Panglima Perang/Ade Pitue (Member of tetua adat) therefore it is also a symbol of leadership. Not many people know about the shape of Sudanga/Alameng because of its prestige (produce limited). Congrats!.
" about the sword from Marco in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sulawesi
See also the affinity from the embossings from both hilts.
And now I am sure that also the beautiful sword from Bill Marsh, shown here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sulawesi
belong to this family of swords.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Here the three swords side by side for a easy view.

Hope it is ok for Charles that I have add his one to the overview!

[Maurice]

Congrats with this very beautifull sword Detlef!

Never would have thought it to be from Celebes.
My first (immediate) thoughts were that it must be from Java.
And this is why:

1: When looking at the "Tjikeroe" shaped blades I see similarities with these pieces.

2: Also the scabbard is almost identical as the very early pedangs of Java that had been discussed on this forum somewhere before.

3: Also when looking at the handle of Bill's piece, I see similarities as the birdheads handles on some of the Tjikeroe goloks.
And the shape of Marco's handle can be derived from those very early pedangs of Java that had been discussed on this forum before (see my point 2... )



But..... it seemed that you all are convinced it to be from Makassar, so it probably is......
Could you let me know if there's any info about it to study in articles and/or pictures?

Very interesting and lovely sword!
Probably a good studypiece for me...

PS. I can't recall that I've seen any piece of Celebes with suassa......??

[Sajen]

Hi Maurice,

read the two threads I have given the links. I am very inclined to believe the the statement from Sipakatuo since he is from Sulawesi and the co author from the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis". I will contact him via pm and email if he can have a look and can give us further informations.
BTW, there was a old collection label by the sword where it is written that it is a "Celebes Pedang Bengkok from 1840". The sword coming from an old netherlands collection.
I am as well never have seen swassa/suassa by Sulawesi pieces, but the small ring at the handle is.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Maurice]

Hi Detlef,

I love those old tags! Keep it with the sword...

Yes I've read the two other threads, and I agree they must be from Celebes than.
But there are those strong resemblances with Javanese swords/pedangs, that there must be a connection somewhere, somehow (as Michael also stated in one of the other threads).

I attached an image of some weapons of the governor of Bandung from about 1880.
Here you see the "Javanese" brothers (three on the left and four pieces at the right) standing upright (but they miss the "Celebes touch" what can be seen on the three mentioned).

My feeling is that they also are all pre 1850 and very old, and must be connected somehow with the Celebes ones....
(just my guess, open for discussion ofcourse)

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hi Detlef,

I love those old tags! Keep it with the sword...

Yes I've read the two other threads, and I agree they must be from Celebes than.
But there are those strong resemblances with Javanese swords/pedangs, that there must be a connection somewhere, somehow (as Michael also stated in one of the other threads).

I attached an image of some weapons of the governor of Bandung from about 1880.
Here you see the "Javanese" brothers (three on the left and four pieces at the right) standing upright (but they miss the "Celebes touch" what can be seen on the three mentioned).

My feeling is that they also are all pre 1850 and very old, and must be connected somehow with the Celebes ones....
(just my guess, open for discussion ofcourse)

Hi Maurice,

yes I know this Sunda swords called sintoeng like shown from Gene in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=sintoeng and agree that there are a lot of affinity between them and special the one from Marco. And like you I believe that there is a connection between them.

Best,

Detlef

[CharlesS]

I had always associated this sword with Java, but now am beginning to think it is from Sulawesi afterall. Would you agree???

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I had always associated this sword with Java, but now am beginning to think it is from Sulawesi afterall. Would you agree???

Hi Charles, yes I agree! look to # 7, the embossing in down of your handle is again very very similar. And the complete appearance of yours fit very well to the other shown examples. Very nice sword BTW.

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

Detlef, did you get the hilt parts tested?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

Detlef, did you get the hilt parts tested?

Can't find my silver test for the moment but the seller just informed me that the hilt is from sterling silver (he has test it) and that the previous owner has test the small ring for gold content but from the colour I think it's suassa.

[VVV]

Maurice,

Except the silver (instead of horn) used for the hilts there also seems to be a difference in the shapes of the end of the hilts between the Sundanese and Makassarese versions.
However, the scabbards and blades don't seem to differ, like you wrote.

Michael

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by VVV

Maurice,

Except the silver (instead of horn) used for the hilts there also seems to be a difference in the shapes of the end of the hilts between the Sundanese and Makassarese versions.
However, the scabbards and blades don't seem to differ, like you wrote.

Michael

OK Michael.

Ofcourse there lived a lot of Europeans in Batavia (nowadays Jakarta).
I've wrote that most Europeans who lived in Celebes, lived around Makassar.
People came in on Batavia, and from there they spread over the Indonesian archipellago, and a lot of them to the region around Makassar.

Maybe this could be the link between the swords. The Europeans often took their Javanese servants with them...... Could it be that the Celebes natives liked their swords and took it over including giving them the "Celebes touch"?

[Maurice]

Hi guys,

I'm still not convinced. As I have another theory on these...

I agree the one from Marco and Charles are from Celebes.
But I'm not convinced the ones from Detlef and Bill are.
I think they both come from Java.

When searching the Leiden database because of my study project at the moment, I found one similar as Detlef's nice sword.

For what it's worth (as pieces were labeled from origine where they were collected and not where they were made and used), this one was collected in Bandung and donated to the Leiden museum by Dr. J. Groneman in 1892.
Unfortunately it isn't described in the Juynbollen, so no further info available I'm afraid....

[VVV]

Hi Maurice,

Like you wrote, we all know how the origin/collection works in the Leiden catalogues. This implies that we need more than one weapon to make a guideline (in both ways).

Michael

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by VVV

Hi Maurice,

Like you wrote, we all know how the origin/collection works in the Leiden catalogues. This implies that we need more than one weapon to make a guideline (in both ways).

Michael

Hi Michael,

I agree fulltime with you that we need more weapons and the best with provenance.
Who knows what turns up in future...

Maurice

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hi guys,

I'm still not convinced. As I have another theory on these...

I agree the one from Marco and Charles are from Celebes.
But I'm not convinced the ones from Detlef and Bill are.
I think they both come from Java.

When searching the Leiden database because of my study project at the moment, I found one similar as Detlef's nice sword.

For what it's worth (as pieces were labeled from origine where they were collected and not where they were made and used), this one was collected in Bandung and donated to the Leiden museum by Dr. J. Groneman in 1892.
Unfortunately it isn't described in the Juynbollen, so no further info available I'm afraid....

Wow, very identical. Now i get some doubts as well. On the labe is written "Celebes Pedang Bengkok from 1840"! Bengkok is to my knowledge situated by Bandung!!! Very confusing.

Thank you very much for posting this sword.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hi Michael,

I agree fulltime with you that we need more weapons and the best with provenance.
Who knows what turns up in future...

Maurice

Agree complete with you Maurice!

[Maurice]

Found this on my search......
A very old drawing, no info further

[Maurice]

And another one!

Text says: Lac Taman - P. Lomprong

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Hmmmmm ..... a bit like the chicken and the egg.
Boils down to belief, I suppose (pardon the pun).
I personally have no problem with it; all seems in order.
However, in your case, perhaps you need to view it from the movements of people in the past.
A good example would be to study three individuals in particular: Arung Pallaka, Kapiten Jonker and Cornelis Janszoon Speelman.
Then may you find an answer of some satisfaction to you.

Best,

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody!

Hmmmmm ..... a bit like the chicken and the egg.
Boils down to belief, I suppose (pardon the pun).
I personally have no problem with it; all seems in order.
However, in your case, perhaps you need to view it from the movements of people in the past.
A good example would be to study three individuals in particular: Arung Pallaka, Kapiten Jonker and Cornelis Janszoon Speelman.
Then may you find an answer of some satisfaction to you.

Best,

Hello Amuk,

please can you explain a little bit more precise? And what do you think from where this shown examples orginate?

Thank you in advance,

Detlef

[Maurice]

I've found a very old one from Preanger -> West Java.
The scabbardtip and - mouth are gone, but a nice addition is the inlay at the back of the obviously old blade. Never have seen inlay on these swords before at the spine of the blade.

It's very likely that these swords are from before 1850 (and probably earlier), as there is a big possibility they were out of fashion allready at that time.
I think a very undervalued piece in private collections, probably because people don't realize how old these pieces are!?!
It's similar at the ones from the old drawings (post #24 and #25), which were made around 1825 (as I found out recently with help of a friendcollector).

Rg,
Maurice

[Sajen]

Hi Maurice,

very nice one, thank you for posting this for our eyes!

Regards,

Detlef