Philippine Insurrection Era Kriss ...or later??

CharlesS · 1st January 2013, 09:51 PM

Battara,

Does the coat of arms on the eagle's(if it is an eagle) chest look familar to you?? Then there is the "M" in the center??? I know the insurrection era is a specialty of yours.

The bird may be American inspired, but is not copy of an American insignia I don't think.

Another strange one.....and that's one of the things that perplexed me as I know the Moros were not involved in the insurrection in alliance with the north, but fought their own war/s with the US.

Spunjer · 2nd January 2013, 01:01 AM

charles, do you think the kris is original with the scabbard? not 100% foolproof, but i tend to check if the groove/grooves line up with the asang2x (that's if everything else looks like it matches. sorta like my "just to make sure" measure).
with that said, if you look at the overall outline of the scabbard, it's exactly similar to this Sulu piece. only difference on yours is, it's not wrapped with rattan bands and it doesn't have MOP:

Spunjer · 2nd January 2013, 01:02 AM

as for the coat of arms: i notice there are three stars and also two stripes (one stripe has horizontal lines while the other one has vertical lines; i think this was done to denote two different colors. one being red and the other one, blue). this part is an important clue. in the early days of american occupation, the shield has thirteen vertical stripes; an alternating red and white, and no stars. it was when the Philippines became a Commonwealth in 1935 that the three stars and two stripes were added. we can then assume that the eagle and shield was added after 1935. the question is; was the eagle/shield added after? from the way it looks tho, it appears that the eagle/shield/ukkil were done at the same time...
as far as the "M", that remains a mystery. hope this helped.

Battara · 2nd January 2013, 01:19 AM

Ron and Charles, I have seen blades like this on both Sulu and Maranao pieces before. However as I said the wranga seems to me to be a mix.

Ron - good point on the stars and stripes on the wranga - I missed that. Therefore I agree that this could push the date a little further back. Does look like the Commonwealth crest, doesn't it?

Charles, Ron brings up another good point. Check to see how well the scabbard fits the asang-asang and fit in general. I still think that this scabbard was made for this kris, although if the fit is not good enough, it would definitely indicate otherwise. I guess I am looking at the okir of the pommel and that of the scabbard.

CharlesS · 2nd January 2013, 01:41 AM

The kriss fits perfectly in the scabbard...definitely "born together".

This later attribution may also go a long way in explaining the poor forging of the blade, that is compared to other and earlier pieces; it's not horrible.

We might say "more style than substance".

Still, quite a neat and attractive piece.

Spunjer · 2nd January 2013, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

We might say "more style then substance".

Still, quite a neat and attractive piece.

indeed it is!

Battara · 2nd January 2013, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The kriss fits perfectly in the scabbard...definitely "born together".

Very good. More valuable that way and a good example of the evolution of these pieces.

VANDOO · 2nd January 2013, 05:37 AM

THE QUALITY OF THE WOOD USED TO MAKE THE SCABBARD IS USUALLY RESERVED FOR THE POMMEL ONLY AND IS NOT AN INEXPENSIVE WOOD AS USUALLY FOUNDIN SCABBARDS. IT APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN MADE WITH THE SAME WOOD AS THE POMMEL AND AT THE SAME TIME AND INTENDED FOR SHOW AND NEVER TO BE COVERED WITH A FIBER WRAP. THE BLADE IS LIKELY THE OLDEST AND THE TWO BACA BACA AND FERULLE AND PERHAPS THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD NEWER THAN THE BLADE.
IS THE FERRULE AND STRAPS SILVER, WHITE METAL OR ALUMINUM? IF NOT SILVER IT IS INCONSISTANT WITH THE CURRENT EXPENSIVE DRESS. JUST OBSERVATIONS FOR OTHERS MORE KNOWLEGABLE TO PONDER.

I DO LIKE IT VERY WELL DONE.

Bangkaya · 2nd January 2013, 06:45 AM

Interesting kris indeed! Looks like a Maranao kris in Sulu dress. This doesn't surprise me. If you have any of the early, old Kris Cutlery Sandata catalogs from the early 1990's when Cecil Quirino was bringing in old swords from Sulu, check out the kris section. There were several krises described as old Maranao blades in more recent Sulu dress. I'm not saying this is one of them, but that it is possible to find a blade from one of the Moro tribe in the dress of another. And really, you would never see a seki kura hilt that is original to a Maranao blade unless it was added on later.

As for the eagle, that is a puzzler. Have you considered that it might be a form of a garuda?

Regards,
Bangkaya

2nd January 2013, 01:01 AM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	charles, do you think the kris is original with the scabbard? not 100% foolproof, but i tend to check if the groove/grooves line up with the asang2x (that's if everything else looks like it matches. sorta like my "just to make sure" measure). with that said, if you look at the overall outline of the scabbard, it's exactly similar to this Sulu piece. only difference on yours is, it's not wrapped with rattan bands and it doesn't have MOP: Attached Images

2nd January 2013, 01:41 AM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	The kriss fits perfectly in the scabbard...definitely "born together". This later attribution may also go a long way in explaining the poor forging of the blade, that is compared to other and earlier pieces; it's not horrible. We might say "more style than substance". Still, quite a neat and attractive piece. Last edited by CharlesS; 2nd January 2013 at 01:35 PM.

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1st January 2013, 09:51 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Battara, Does the coat of arms on the eagle's(if it is an eagle) chest look familar to you?? Then there is the "M" in the center??? I know the insurrection era is a specialty of yours. The bird may be American inspired, but is not copy of an American insignia I don't think. Another strange one.....and that's one of the things that perplexed me as I know the Moros were not involved in the insurrection in alliance with the north, but fought their own war/s with the US.

2nd January 2013, 01:02 AM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	as for the coat of arms: i notice there are three stars and also two stripes (one stripe has horizontal lines while the other one has vertical lines; i think this was done to denote two different colors. one being red and the other one, blue). this part is an important clue. in the early days of american occupation, the shield has thirteen vertical stripes; an alternating red and white, and no stars. it was when the Philippines became a Commonwealth in 1935 that the three stars and two stripes were added. we can then assume that the eagle and shield was added after 1935. the question is; was the eagle/shield added after? from the way it looks tho, it appears that the eagle/shield/ukkil were done at the same time... as far as the "M", that remains a mystery. hope this helped.

2nd January 2013, 01:19 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,371	Ron and Charles, I have seen blades like this on both Sulu and Maranao pieces before. However as I said the wranga seems to me to be a mix. Ron - good point on the stars and stripes on the wranga - I missed that. Therefore I agree that this could push the date a little further back. Does look like the Commonwealth crest, doesn't it? Charles, Ron brings up another good point. Check to see how well the scabbard fits the asang-asang and fit in general. I still think that this scabbard was made for this kris, although if the fit is not good enough, it would definitely indicate otherwise. I guess I am looking at the okir of the pommel and that of the scabbard.

2nd January 2013, 05:37 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE QUALITY OF THE WOOD USED TO MAKE THE SCABBARD IS USUALLY RESERVED FOR THE POMMEL ONLY AND IS NOT AN INEXPENSIVE WOOD AS USUALLY FOUNDIN SCABBARDS. IT APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN MADE WITH THE SAME WOOD AS THE POMMEL AND AT THE SAME TIME AND INTENDED FOR SHOW AND NEVER TO BE COVERED WITH A FIBER WRAP. THE BLADE IS LIKELY THE OLDEST AND THE TWO BACA BACA AND FERULLE AND PERHAPS THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD NEWER THAN THE BLADE. IS THE FERRULE AND STRAPS SILVER, WHITE METAL OR ALUMINUM? IF NOT SILVER IT IS INCONSISTANT WITH THE CURRENT EXPENSIVE DRESS. JUST OBSERVATIONS FOR OTHERS MORE KNOWLEGABLE TO PONDER. I DO LIKE IT VERY WELL DONE.

2nd January 2013, 06:45 AM	#9
Bangkaya Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 38	Interesting kris indeed! Looks like a Maranao kris in Sulu dress. This doesn't surprise me. If you have any of the early, old Kris Cutlery Sandata catalogs from the early 1990's when Cecil Quirino was bringing in old swords from Sulu, check out the kris section. There were several krises described as old Maranao blades in more recent Sulu dress. I'm not saying this is one of them, but that it is possible to find a blade from one of the Moro tribe in the dress of another. And really, you would never see a seki kura hilt that is original to a Maranao blade unless it was added on later. As for the eagle, that is a puzzler. Have you considered that it might be a form of a garuda? Regards, Bangkaya