Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

Jean · 21st December 2012, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Jean, Madagascar people had nothing to do with Bugis trade.

Gustav,
I agree, the Malay settlement in Madagascar occurred much earlier than the Bugis trade indeed.

Regards

rasdan · 21st December 2012, 06:13 PM

Hi Jean,

The ones they have in the keris bugis book I think is probably sperm whale tooth. (Again a guessing game here) In the past, I had bought something that is being sold as dugong tooth. It's certainly does not look like ivory. Looks more like bone. (If it is really dugong's tooth that is - I don't even know if dugongs have large teeth/tusks to tell you the truth) It is very small to have a bugis hilt to be carved out of it, so I had it made into a hilt by gluing it section by section.

G'day Alan,

Yes, I agree that probably everything that look like ivory is labeled as elephant ivory by the general public in the past. This had probably annulled my second point.

But, what about the dots? It really correlates with the dots on hippo ivory. Pattani pekaka hilts (large Jawa Demam) is normally made from this kind of material and it can be very large. It is hard for me to imagine any ivory other than elephant that can provide the size. I certainly have very little experience with this kind of material, but are there any other type of material that have these dots? (I had seen these dots in a picture of a cross section of hippo ivory, but can't find it at the moment)

I have to make clear about the market of gigi ikan and elephant ivory here in Malaysia. The difference is not quite substantial. If we have two similar hilt, one is elephant and one is marine, the marine is gonna be a bit expensive. If we only have elephant, the the price would be pretty much the same with the marine one.

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

I had seen these dots in a picture of a cross section of hippo ivory, but can't find it at the moment

Dear Rasdan,

look post #15 this thread. Agree with you that this dots a very clear sign for hippo ivory.

Regards,

Detlef

rasdan · 22nd December 2012, 01:38 AM

G'day Alan,

Yes if we are about to scientifically prove that it is hippo then what we had been doing is certainly inadequate and I surely don't have any answers..

Hi Detlef,

Wow, the picture is right there and I can't remember?. Must be that apocalypse thing. (actually I jumped to the end of the thread

) Thanks for kindly pointing out the pic!

Sajen · 22nd December 2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Hi Detlef,

Wow, the picture is right there and I can't remember?. Must be that apocalypse thing. (actually I jumped to the end of the thread

) Thanks for kindly pointing out the pic!

Hi Rasdan,

have posted the same picture by a other thread some time ago, I think you remember it from this time.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 23rd December 2012, 07:09 AM

Thanks Rasdan.

But if we cannot prove this hippo ivory thing, is it possible to at least identify the first time that it was raised as a possibility, upon what basis, and by whom?

asomotif · 23rd December 2012, 12:05 PM

Dear Alan,

The spotted line is only found in hippo ivory.
Probably it is a western collector thing that we want to know the exact origin of ivory, and that we not accept a term as "marine ivory".

One of your points is that salesmen in Indonesia do not use the term hippo.
But do they make a big selling point of the fact if a hilt is made from elefant ivory ?
And in these cases do they specifiy this into asian elephant, african elephant and/or even mammoth ivory ?

Best regards,
Willem

Jean · 23rd December 2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks Rasdan.

But if we cannot prove this hippo ivory thing, is it possible to at least identify the first time that it was raised as a possibility, upon what basis, and by whom?

Hello Alan,
I think that it will be very difficult to identify when and where the hippo ivory issue for making kris hilts started or when it was first documented, especially because it probably happened a long time ago and not in Java nor Bali.
And about scientifically proving the hippo ivory thing we would need to resort to a recognized materials analysis laboratory but personally I have no access to any at present. According to the litterature (Webster) the physical properties of hippo ivory differ from elephant ivory especially its specific gravity (1.8 to 1.95 versus 1.7 to 1.85) and its hardness (5 versus 2.5-3, this is the most marked difference). This shows the more mineralized structure of hippo ivory. These 2 physical differences are well (although qualitatively) reflected in the hilts attributed to hippo ivory IMO, together with the generally better ageing performance (less discolouring and cracks) and the presence of the famous dotted line. There are probably some more modern and decisive techniques (radiation, DNA analysis) able to differentiate them also but I am not aware of any.
What do our distinguished members from Singapore have to say about the subject?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 21st December 2012, 06:29 PM

Jean, one of my deficiencies is that I am somewhat of a dinosaur.

I very seldom use internet sources for serious research, and when I do, I look for reference works or citations attached to the net source.

Regrettably Wikipedia very often has neither and that is the case with this Malagasy reference you have directed me to. In essence, it is somebody's opinion, but we don't know who, and we don't know how reliable that opinion is.

But in any case, all of this is very much off to one side. There is plenty of evidence of far reaching Malay trade links, and even if the Malays themselves were not roaming hither and yon, other peoples from far west were wandering over to S.E.Asia. Lots of movement.

I do not deny the possibility of hippos contributing to keris accoutrements.

That is not at all what was in my mind when I began this chain of posts.

Two questions:-

1) who first raised the matter of hippo ivory being used in keris hilts, and when was this first raised?

2) what solid evidence exists that can substantiate that possibility and turn it into fact?

This is what I would like to know.

Until we have answers to these two questions, especially the second one, the possibility of hippo ivory used as material for keris hilts is just that:- a possibility. No more.

As an aside, there is a theory that everything in the world gradually moves to the east. I have bought genuine, excavated, Roman beads (authenticated) in Jawa. No reason why hippo ivory should not have moved to the east, along with a multitude of other things. That is possibility. What I would like to see is positivity.

Rasdan, I know there are dots in some hilts.

I also know that in spite of all the ivory I own, I know very little about ivory, certainly not sufficient to identify simply by looking and lifting whether something comes from one beast, or a different beast.

Accordingly, I am not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory in keris hilts.

I am asking for two things, as above.

With those answers I can then begin to wonder why it is that I have never heard mention of hippo ivory until very, very recently. Did the old-timers not know from what beast the material their keris hilts came? Then there is the dealer question. Dealers are sharp. They pass up on nothing that might generate an extra few rupiah.

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21st December 2012, 06:13 PM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi Jean, The ones they have in the keris bugis book I think is probably sperm whale tooth. (Again a guessing game here) In the past, I had bought something that is being sold as dugong tooth. It's certainly does not look like ivory. Looks more like bone. (If it is really dugong's tooth that is - I don't even know if dugongs have large teeth/tusks to tell you the truth) It is very small to have a bugis hilt to be carved out of it, so I had it made into a hilt by gluing it section by section. G'day Alan, Yes, I agree that probably everything that look like ivory is labeled as elephant ivory by the general public in the past. This had probably annulled my second point. But, what about the dots? It really correlates with the dots on hippo ivory. Pattani pekaka hilts (large Jawa Demam) is normally made from this kind of material and it can be very large. It is hard for me to imagine any ivory other than elephant that can provide the size. I certainly have very little experience with this kind of material, but are there any other type of material that have these dots? (I had seen these dots in a picture of a cross section of hippo ivory, but can't find it at the moment) I have to make clear about the market of gigi ikan and elephant ivory here in Malaysia. The difference is not quite substantial. If we have two similar hilt, one is elephant and one is marine, the marine is gonna be a bit expensive. If we only have elephant, the the price would be pretty much the same with the marine one.

22nd December 2012, 01:38 AM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	G'day Alan, Yes if we are about to scientifically prove that it is hippo then what we had been doing is certainly inadequate and I surely don't have any answers.. Hi Detlef, Wow, the picture is right there and I can't remember?. Must be that apocalypse thing. (actually I jumped to the end of the thread ) Thanks for kindly pointing out the pic!

23rd December 2012, 07:09 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,249	Thanks Rasdan. But if we cannot prove this hippo ivory thing, is it possible to at least identify the first time that it was raised as a possibility, upon what basis, and by whom?

23rd December 2012, 12:05 PM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,238	Dear Alan, The spotted line is only found in hippo ivory. Probably it is a western collector thing that we want to know the exact origin of ivory, and that we not accept a term as "marine ivory". One of your points is that salesmen in Indonesia do not use the term hippo. But do they make a big selling point of the fact if a hilt is made from elefant ivory ? And in these cases do they specifiy this into asian elephant, african elephant and/or even mammoth ivory ? Best regards, Willem

21st December 2012, 06:29 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,249	Jean, one of my deficiencies is that I am somewhat of a dinosaur. I very seldom use internet sources for serious research, and when I do, I look for reference works or citations attached to the net source. Regrettably Wikipedia very often has neither and that is the case with this Malagasy reference you have directed me to. In essence, it is somebody's opinion, but we don't know who, and we don't know how reliable that opinion is. But in any case, all of this is very much off to one side. There is plenty of evidence of far reaching Malay trade links, and even if the Malays themselves were not roaming hither and yon, other peoples from far west were wandering over to S.E.Asia. Lots of movement. I do not deny the possibility of hippos contributing to keris accoutrements. That is not at all what was in my mind when I began this chain of posts. Two questions:- 1) who first raised the matter of hippo ivory being used in keris hilts, and when was this first raised? 2) what solid evidence exists that can substantiate that possibility and turn it into fact? This is what I would like to know. Until we have answers to these two questions, especially the second one, the possibility of hippo ivory used as material for keris hilts is just that:- a possibility. No more. As an aside, there is a theory that everything in the world gradually moves to the east. I have bought genuine, excavated, Roman beads (authenticated) in Jawa. No reason why hippo ivory should not have moved to the east, along with a multitude of other things. That is possibility. What I would like to see is positivity. Rasdan, I know there are dots in some hilts. I also know that in spite of all the ivory I own, I know very little about ivory, certainly not sufficient to identify simply by looking and lifting whether something comes from one beast, or a different beast. Accordingly, I am not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory in keris hilts. I am asking for two things, as above. With those answers I can then begin to wonder why it is that I have never heard mention of hippo ivory until very, very recently. Did the old-timers not know from what beast the material their keris hilts came? Then there is the dealer question. Dealers are sharp. They pass up on nothing that might generate an extra few rupiah.