Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

[Jean]

From the pictures I feel quite convinced that this hilt is made from hippo ivory as said by Detlef for the following reasons (not supported by any academic research but only practical experience):
. The dotted line is very characteristic of the hippo ivory and different from the age cracks of elephant ivory.
. Walrus ivory has a marble appearance if observed in cross view and this should reflect on the external visual appearance of the hilt, which is not the case.
. I have some doubts that walrus ivory was widely used for making kris hilts because it would involve trading links with Russia while it is widely accepted that the Bugis traded hippo and elephant ivory with East Africa, either directly or with the Omanis who controlled the area.
I refer you to the well-documented book from Wolfgang Schilling: "Faszination kris - Zauber des Materials" about the subject.
By the way I never observed any Schreger/ Retzius line in a piece supposedly made from hippo ivory...
Of course I remain open to discussion and am ready to change my mind if anybody can convince me otherwise
Best regards

[Sajen]

Hello Thor,

sorry for my late reply. I also don't have any academic research/opinon for my point of view. My position is based on facts like explained from Jean. I also refer you to the book from Wolfgang Schilling who is a friend collector from me. Sadly it will be difficult to get the book, the edition was very small.
A 100% safe result will be possible only by DNA anlysis IMHO.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Attached are the pictures of a similar hilt also made from hippo ivory I think, please note that the crest and "nose" have been damaged. The piece from Gustav may have been dyed as normally hippo ivory stays very white even after a long time (I saw few exceptions though).
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Over perhaps a few years now I have read the many and various posts and opinions on hilts made from supposedly hippo ivory, walrus ivory, this ivory, that ivory, and some other ivory. I've looked at close-up pictures of dotted lines that supposedly prove that the material is hippo ivory, I've looked at pictures of vague ivory grains that supposedly prove the material is some other sort of ivory. It seems almost everybody knows more about this exotic discipline of ivory identification than I do, so I have pretty much stayed out of the discussion.

However, it seems to me that somewhere, sometime during the last forty odd years of visits to Indonesia and long wandering conversations with collectors and dealers in keris and other objects in Indonesia, I would have heard some mention of hippo ivory. But I never have.

It seems that in my reading on historic trade links with the Old East Indies I would have somewhere stumbled across some mention of hippo ivory coming into what is now Indonesia. I never have.

The hilts that I see presented as hippo ivory seem to be almost universally described by dealers and collectors in Indonesia as "tulang ikan" = "fish bone", or "gigi ikan paus" = "whale tooth". I've never heard even the smallest whisper of "kuda nil", or "badak sungai" = hippopotamus.

Now, I'm not saying that this total absence of any acknowledgement by the people most closely concerned with keris, and most especially with the extraction of money from the trade in keris, is evidence that these hilts of supposedly hippo ivory are indeed, not hippo ivory. But it does seem strange that if the possibility is there, that these incredibly clever traders would ignore the chance to raise the exotica stakes a notch or two by throwing some hippo into the money mix.

So, is it barely possible that this hippo business is just another collector myth?

Where is the beginning and foundation for these claims that some hilts are made from hippo ivory?

Do we have any good, solid, incontrovertible evidence of just one hilt that is beyond the shadow of any doubt made of hippo ivory?

Or do we have opinions that choose to ignore the accumulated knowledge of the demographic most closely associated with the keris?

Quite frankly, I had never heard even the smallest suggestion that those poor old hippos in far away Africa had been contributing their body parts to the glorification of keris in Maritime South East Asia, until very recently.

I'd really like to try to understand how the whole thing happened.

Can somebody point me at an academic paper, or article, or report where an adequate analysis of the materials used in keris hilts demonstrates beyond any doubt that hippo ivory was used to create just one hilt? Or possibly some old trade inventories that list hippo ivory coming into Batavia or some other port in the Old Indies?

[asomotif]

Dear Allan,

Interesting question.
Antique dealers and also antique magazines in the west more or less agree that the dotted line indicates hippo ivory.
But I must believe you when you say this term is not used in Indonesia.

Best would be to go to the source and check with the people making these hilts. Do they ever have pieces of hippo ivory in stock ?
Have you ever seen the raw materials in Indonesia which they use ? this would indeed be very intersting.

Best regards,
Willem

[Jean]

Dear Alan and Willem,
Thank you for your interesting comments and again I have no academic background nor proven evidence that these hilts are made from hippo ivory but wish to reply as follows:
. All the ivory hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw or own are either from Sulawesi or Sumatra/ Malaysia, so the Javanese or Balinese dealers or experts are not very qualified to identify them IMO.
. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.
. The external dotted line is connected to the interstitial zone found in hippo ivory and not other species as far as I know.
. All the hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw are old (circa 100 years or more) and the hippo ivory trading with Indonesia vanished long time ago so I doubt that you can find any Indonesian hilt maker familiar with the materials nowadays (but probably in China).
. For those of you who like myself are familiar with such pieces, the materials looks and feels very different from the other ivory species from it high density, white colour, and very polished aspect, and it ages much better than elephant ivory for instance (no cracks). Spermwhale tooth ivory is also different because its colour is darker inside.
Well, this is my last attempt to convince you on the subject and I will welcome the opinion of experts.
Regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Dear Alan and Willem,
Thank you for your interesting comments and again I have no academic background nor proven evidence that these hilts are made from hippo ivory but wish to reply as follows:
. All the ivory hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw or own are either from Sulawesi or Sumatra/ Malaysia, so the Javanese or Balinese dealers or experts are not very qualified to identify them IMO.
. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.
. The external dotted line is connected to the interstitial zone found in hippo ivory and not other species as far as I know.
. All the hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw are old (circa 100 years or more) and the hippo ivory trading with Indonesia vanished long time ago so I doubt that you can find any Indonesian hilt maker familiar with the materials nowadays (but probably in China).
. For those of you who like myself are familiar with such pieces, the materials looks and feels very different from the other ivory species from it high density, white colour, and very polished aspect, and it ages much better than elephant ivory for instance (no cracks). Spermwhale tooth ivory is also different because its colour is darker inside.
Well, this is my last attempt to convince you on the subject and I will welcome the opinion of experts.
Regards

Agree in all points with you Jean and know also what Willem write about hippo ivory. Never have seen a hippo ivory hilt from Java or Bali.

Regards,

Detlef

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Jean

. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.

Jean, I would be very interested in a written evidence regarding this point, becouse I searched for it and found nothing that would support a theory of direct trade between Bugis and Africa.