Miquelet Pistol, decoration and maker questions

[dana_w]

What Neal & Daehnhart call "Castilian style" in fig 16 (top two photos of your post #32) and fig 29 (third photo of your post #32) seem VERY different. I'd enjoy seeing some more precisely defined and explicit examples.

After reading both of their books, I am a big fan of Dr. Lavin's scholarship when compared to Neal. Don't get me wrong both books are great, but Lavin likes to use contemporary terms and names ("llave ala moda"), while Neal uses locations ("Madrid Lock"). Lavin seems to be the expert when it comes to Etymology.

[fernando]

I wouldn't sustain an academical discussion on this subject, as i don't have enough luggage for that. It could be a matter of interpretation, or a matter of being locks of different periods belonging in the same timeline, or a matter of only wishing to call a lock "à Castelhana" to define it as non Portuguese (for the matter); i wouldn't bet on which interpretation to adopt.
... Neither i would contradict you on which author has more authority in this area.
I know that the terminology is not entirely the same in either Country. I often see the patilha lock being called over here "patilha de invenção" (invention patilla), for one.
The fact is that Daehnhardt has in his collection locks by the thousand (thousand). In a quick (three hour) visit to his museum/residence i have seen several hundreds of them ... while my attention was locked on his vast amount of weapons. So i gather he should now a reasonable deal about locks.
Just as an aside, the curator of the Victoria Albert Museum paid him a visit to appreciate his locks colection and, at sight of the situation, decided to stay i the house for three days to fully cover the whole bunch.

[dana_w]

I would LOVE to see a collection like the one you are talking about. I knew nothing about Professor Rainer Daehnhardt's collection until now. Thanks for putting me on the path! http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/history.htm http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/RDCollection.htm

A big problem I have in studying this subject is so much contradictory information on some of the details, and how much wrong information. For example Christies called this a Miquelet lock. I guess it could be a "Madrid" type Miquelet lock, but it sure doesn't look like it from the photo. Where are the horizontal sears?

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/a...2-details.aspx

[Fernando K]

Hola:

Creo que no hay confusion por lo sostenido por NEAL y LAVIN: uno habla de "a la moda" y el otro "a la moda de Madrid" porque esta llave fué producida, mayormente, por los arcabuceros de Madrid. Se trata de una llave (lock) con los "calzos" en el gatillo, el de media monta (half-cock) en la parte delantera, y el de disparo (full-cock) en la parte trasera.

LAVIN incluye un dibujo en página 183, y en el apendice A, en pagina 183, incluye un documento de Palacio sobre el precio a cobrar por los armeros al Rey.
En pàgina 287, del GLOSARIO, incluye una mencion: "Media llave a la moda con el juego al revés", o sea, con los "calzos" colocados de manera inversa, como sucede en el arma militar descripta por Barcelo Rubí en su Armamento Militar Español.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Hello:

I think there is confusion about what is claimed by NEAL and LAVIN: one speaks of "fashionable" and the other "fashionable Madrid" because this key was produced, mostly, by the arquebusiers of Madrid. This is a key (lock) with the "wedges" on the trigger, the mounting medium (half-cock) on the front, and the shutter (full-cock) in the rear.

LAVIN includes a drawing on page 183, and Appendix A, on page 183, includes a document Palace on the price charged for the dealers to the King.
On page 287, the glossary includes a mention: "Media key to fashion with the game backwards", ie the "chocks" placed in reverse, as in the military weapon described by Barcelo Rubi in Armament Spanish Military.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

one speaks of "fashionable" and the other "fashionable Madrid" because this key was produced, mostly, by the arquebusiers of Madrid.

Both agree about the "llave ala moda" style being mainly from Madrid. Lavin likes to use the contemporary name. Neal named the lock for the place aka "Madrid lock" in his 1955 book (was the term used before then?). Most people have adopted Neal's term, but I like Lavin's. Lavin also translates "llave" as lock, not key. All of this is a little harder for those of us who don't speak anything but English.

In any case Fernando K, I was just talking about the deferences between the two authors, and picked the "Madrid lock" as an example. I like both books.

Fernando and I are really talking about what makes a stock or a lock "Portuguese" in origin. That is what I am trying to understand. One example Fernando has given is the butt plate of the "egg butt" pistol, and how in wraps around the butt and up the sides of the stock for a short distance.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

.... Lavin also translates "llave" as lock, not key. All of this is a little harder for those of us who don't speak anything but English.

No riddle here. Lavin talks about Spanish locks, which Spaniards call llaves (keys). Neal/Daehnhardt talk about Portuguese locks, which Portuguese call fechos, or fecharias (locks) ... also the term used in english.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

... talking about what makes a stock or a lock "Portuguese" in origin. That is what I am trying to understand. One example Fernando has given is the butt plate of the "egg butt" pistol, and how in wraps around the butt and up the sides of the stock for a short distance.

For example, this is Portuguese:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=trigger+guard

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

.... For example Christies called this a Miquelet lock. I guess it could be a "Madrid" type Miquelet lock, but it sure doesn't look like it from the photo. Where are the horizontal sears? ...

Dana, you have enough knowledge to know this isn't at all a patilha (Miquelete) lock; even i know it.
(Commercial) people like to put appealing names on things. If you browse on antique cannons you will notice that the majority of them for sale are pretended to be Portuguese. Well, hardly one is