Origins of karabela

[Jim McDougall]

Looks like the wisdom of the stooges is well placed! I think the score for birth of the karabela is to Turkey by landslide with only one shaky example for the Iranian claim. You perceived my comment pertaining to the Khorasani reference well
Outstanding research there as well Ariel. I do agree with Teodor also in wondering if the Selim sword is a remounted example in the manner of many of the Topkapi swords.

All the best,
Jim

[TVV]

Just for fun's sake, here are pictures of karabelas from Vienna: the first one is from the Military History Museum, and the other two from a display in the Vienna City History Museum. I took a close up a few years ago when I was there, but it is too blurry, so I am posting picture of the entire display. Both displays are dedicated to trophies, taken during the second siege of Vienna (except for the Ethipian presentation shield, which the curators must have misidentified and misplaced, of course ).

I am also adding a picture from the Army Museum in Ingolstadt: it may have been posted here before, I do not remember where I got it from.

Regards,
Teodor

[ariel]

We may never know the full history of the Selim's sword: the Imperial Ottomans were notoriously generous with decorating ( and re-decorating) their famous weapons and even more notoriously bad about documentation and standards of care. The book by Yucel mentions inscriptions on the Holy Swords that were present in the 1920-30s ( Stocklein's examination), but were lost subsequently due to rough cleaning.

This is the real reason why the Western collections are so important: their pedantic, unromantic documentation is academically precise and unarguable, whereas Iranian collections are still based on legends and wishful thinking aimed at bolstering sagging national ego. Turks are somewhere in the middle: their treasures were at least concentrated in Topkapi (and, later, Askeri Muze), and there is is an honest recent attempt on their part to start cataloguing and publishing ( Yucel, Aydin and Yasar's books).

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

We may never know the full history of the Selim's sword: the Imperial Ottomans were notoriously generous with decorating ( and re-decorating) their famous weapons and even more notoriously bad about documentation and standards of care. The book by Yucel mentions inscriptions on the Holy Swords that were present in the 1920-30s ( Stocklein's examination), but were lost subsequently due to rough cleaning.

This is the real reason why the Western collections are so important: their pedantic, unromantic documentation is academically precise and unarguable, whereas Iranian collections are still based on legends and wishful thinking aimed at bolstering sagging national ego. Turks are somewhere in the l !!: their treasures were at least concentrated in Topkapi (and, later, Askeri Muze), and there is is an honest recent attempt on their part to start cataloguing and publishing ( Yucel, Aydin and Yasar's books).

Salaams Ariel ~ I think you hit the nail on the head there!!! ha !
I have the book "Selim The Grim" and will dive into that in due course. Great stuff Ariel.

I imagine this will throw open the debate on Karabela appearing in Saudia hilts and Zanzibari Nimcha (hilts that I think look like hawksheads) I can see the transition from Turkey down the Eastern Mediterranean via Bedouin formations down into the entire region (Saudia and. the Red Sea) much more logically.. looking at Buttin now...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bedouin shows great map by Dom on Bedouin grouping..and a post showing Karabela hilts is close by.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ariel ~ I think you hit the nail on the head there!!! ha !
I have the book "Selim The Grim" and will dive into that in due course. Great stuff Ariel.

I imagine this will throw open the debate on Karabela appearing in Saudia hilts and Zanzibari Nimcha (hilts that I think look like hawksheads) I can see the transition from Turkey down the Eastern Mediterranean via Bedouin formations down into the entire region (Saudia and. the Red Sea) much more logically.. looking at Buttin now...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bedouin shows great map by Dom on Bedouin grouping..and a post showing Karabela hilts is close by.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Correction the book is on the son Sulaiyman the Magnificent, however, interestingly he is shown wearing a Karabela hilted sword in a sketch which I will publish tomorrow.

I add the note by wiki encyclopaedia as follows and for those of us, like me, who aren't yet quite conversant with this style of sword ~

Quote "A karabela was a type of Polish sabre (szabla). Perhaps one of the most famous types Polish sabres, it became highly popular in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the 1670s.

The word "karabela" does not have well-established etymology, and different versions are suggested. For example, Zygmunt Gloger suggests derivation from the name of the Iraqui city of Karbala, known for trade of this kind of sabres. It may also be a loanword from the Turkish compound word "kara-bela", which means * "black-bane".

The sabre was modelled after the swords of the Turkish footmen formations of Janissaries and Spahis, which used it in close quarters. Much lighter than the hussar szabla, the karabela had an open hilt with the pommel modelled after an eagle's head. Such a grip allowed for easier handling of circular cuts while fighting on foot, and for swinging cuts from horseback.

Initially, the karabela sabres were used mostly for decoration or as a ceremonial weapon worn on special occasions. Popularized during the reign of King Jan III Sobieski, the sabre became one of the most popular Polish melee weapons. Though in theory the type could be subdivided into ornamental ceremonial type and a simple battle weapon, in reality both more expensive and the cheaper designs were often used in combat. Most of the Polish nobility (szlachta) could afford only one expensive karabela and, in case of need, simply replaced the ebony or ivory-made scabbard with a leather-made one, and removed some of the precious stones from the hilt in order to convert it into a fully reliable weapon". Unquote.


*I have never heard of "black bane" however ~ They think history's most serious anthrax outbreak was "Black Bane," a terrible epidemic that swept Europe in the 1600s. It killed at least 60,000 people and many more domestic and wild animals. Perhaps it refers to that ? See rense.com/general16/thehistoryofgerm.htm

It thus occured to me that if a sword was named after an anthrax epidemic in Europe that it would point to its origin of design.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

As noted by Ibrahiim, the Polish and Hungarians often adopted Turkish sword designs, developing into the familiar szabla which became the dashing cavalry sabres of Europe. With thier constant warfare with the Turks and thier incursions naturally there would be significant influence. The Persian influences throughout most of these cultural spheres cannot be ignored despite how subtle or indirect they were. Like most diffusion of influence culturally, just as with most instances of discovery and invention, these are the result of typically gradually occurring events and occurrences which culminate into established entities which then develop into having thier own identity.

I would imagine the adoption of these trilobate type hilts from those used by janissaries and in other Ottoman circumstances in regions of Arabia would be from Ottoman suzerainty and trade there. It is interesting to note that the well known repousse silverwork trilobate hilt Arabian sa'if usually attributed to San'aa and Hadhramaut have been regarded to often have been produced in Hyderabad in India. It would seem that the style must have been furnished to those artisans from Arabian sources as I cannot offhand think of other Indian hilts with karabela styling.

[ariel]

Here is a pic from Yucel's book about Topkapi collection. Usually, the authors are very fastidious about potential alterations to the swords and their furniture, not sparing even the examples attributed to Muhammed, his companions and the first Caliphs.
This sword has no corrections and equivocations. In the authors' opinion, therefore, it is as original and pristine as can be.
It is dated to early 10th century Hijra/16th century CE. Signed by Ahmad al-Tuqati, embellished with Seljuk motives.


Thus, Turkish "karabela" handles were in existence at least 100 years before Shah Abbas I, the purported "inventor" of that style traipsed to Karbala.