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#1 |
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I call it a carbine, but am note sure if this is the right term.
It has a calibre of approx. 17 mm; the barrel measures 43 cms; the total length is 74 cms and 54 cms. when folded. Said to be a XVIII century Brescia work; i would love to hear more about these guns, namely and specialy who would be the maker... or the maker's school. Thank you for your comments ![]() . |
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#2 |
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some more
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#3 |
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A folding stock Miquelet, interesting, very interesting. Obviously, a patilla (foot of the animal /rooster) style llave española (Spanish Lock), aka Miquelet. It looks like the battery has a removable / replaceable face. There don't appear to be any makers marks on the barrel or lock. Sometimes the inside of the lock is marked. The style of the butt looks like early Catalan. The half octagonal, half round barrel has both pins and barrel bands. There is a side-plate, but no trigger guard. The screw for the barrel tang looks like it enters the stock from in front on the trigger. The floral designs and that bird figure sure don't look Moorish, nor do the non-matching floral decorations on the lock bridals.
Is this yours fernando? Do you have any photos of the side-plate? Last edited by dana_w; 3rd December 2012 at 12:33 AM. |
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#4 |
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Thanks for the input, Dana
Yes it is mine; some swap i made last Friday, with some extra from my side ![]() ![]() Mind you, patilla (or patilha in portuguese) refers to the hammer toe as its shape resembles human hair sideburns. Yes, the battery appears to have a replaceable face. I didn't yet decide to dismount the lock foor possible interior marks. No the the butt style is not Catalan but Brescian. The catalan butt looks more boot/foot like. No there are not pins fixing the barrel to the stock, only bands. Maybe you are noticing some wood imperfections. The is or was no trigger guard; both side and counter plate pictures will be posted soon. Yes the screw that holds the tang is in the 'inverted' position, a method also used in early Portuguese examples. I agree that the decoration doesn't look Moorish at all. On the other hand, it is known that the patilla (Miquelet) lock was brought to Italy during Spanish domination ... if i put it correctly. . |
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#5 |
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Thanks for the additional photos fernando. I am looking forward to learning more about your new prize.
I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese. What little I know,(or think I know) comes from my father F.E. Williams (aka Jack Williams), Keith Neal and Dr. Lavin. On page 166 of Lavin's book, he says “Here 'pie' is used by Espinar in the same sense as 'patilla' in his chapter on the gunlock. The difference between the two is slight; pie normally refers to the human foot, while pata, or its diminutive, patilla, is the foot of the animal or object.” On Page 190 Lavin talks about the Italian influence on the Castilian style. I am sure you are right about the more fish tail like Berescian stock now that I have looked at this chapter again. I do have a matchlock carbine supposedly made in Ripoll that has a stock much like the one you show here. Don't some early Catalan style butts have a much less pronounced “toe”? The photos fooled me about the pins. I have some barrels with only pins, some with pins and barrel bands and some with only barrel bands. I hear that barrel bands only means it was made later. That is one fascinating weapon you have there. I would love to know if there are any markings on the inside of the lock. |
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#6 |
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I had been recently in Malta, where I visited the famous Palace Armoury - a true must for every collector and researcher of arms & armor. there are some very similar guns on display, they call them "Scavezzo". According the text these were used by coach drivers and poachers. Sorry for the bad photos, the result of taking hundreds under unfriendly light conditions, and no flash.
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#7 |
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Let's see, Dana:
I have spent the last several weeks rereading Dr. James Lavins book, A History of Spanish Firearms. That one is an essential I wish that I spoke Spanish or Portuguese I am lucky on that one ![]() I took it to the workshop this morning to fix a loose screw in the folding mechanism. The smith dismounted the lock just for fun. It has no marks except for a large X. It has a rather well developed mechanism. Next week i will post pictures of it. |
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#8 | |
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![]() I haven't yet visited that museum because low cost companies don't fly to such destination. Thanks for posting images of something of the sort; it is always rather comforting to see a piece similar to ours. It all starts to make sense; i was told this model is called over here a stage coach 'clavina' (a term/style that preceded the 'modern' carabina). On the other hand, the meaning of 'Scavezzo', besides the basic attribution of the term (broken, from to break or to brake up) is the idiomatic name to connotate these guns as prohibited while insidious, with a stock hinged in two parts, to possibilitate for the butt to join the forearm, to easily conceal it. 1. agg. Scavezzato, cioè rotto, spezzato. In partic., arma s., fucile s., o, come sost., scavezzo, arma da fuoco portatile, proibita in quanto arma insidiosa, con la cassa in due pezzi incernierati in modo da poter ripiegare il calcio sul fusto per meglio nasconderla. Well, i will assume that my fine example would have belonged in the stage coah of wealthy traveler, and not in the pocket of a poacher's cloak ![]() Thanks again for your input, Broadaxe ![]() |
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#9 |
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Pictures of counter plate and trigger plate.
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#10 |
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fernando, someone who is reading this forum, but who is not a member, thought you would enjoy seeing these Folding Flintlock Guns that were sold at auction in November.
http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot....=45749&asta=38 http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot....=45764&asta=38 http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot....=45748&asta=38 |
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#11 |
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Nice ... very nice.
Let's upload the images, so that we may keep them in our archives, for permanenmt access ... a good practice in our forum. Here is the first one: . Last edited by fernando; 8th December 2012 at 11:47 AM. |
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#12 |
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second one:
- Last edited by fernando; 8th December 2012 at 11:48 AM. |
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#13 |
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and the third one ... most similar to mine.
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#14 | |
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Wow, check out the end of that spring. Neat!
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#16 |
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I sincerly hope that the engravings on mine, being visibly more pronounced, are a more elaborated craft method and an added value on these things.
Otherwise i feel a bit frustrated, as i have paid much more than the one in the auction ![]() . |
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#17 |
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Hello:
The working method applied to the plates is not recorded, but the "tooled". Fernando would be interesting to tell us what material they are made (? Silver, nickel, iron?) The weapon of the post 10, a blunderbuss travel has on his shield (escutcheon) a phrase in Italian, I fail to decipher: "chi non nona Legge P. ....." The weapon of the post 13 has an inscription on the barrel LAZZAPINA. It was amended by adding a leg to the P to become R, LAZZARINO (Lazzarino Comionazo why?) In post 14, Photo of the key, I would like to know is that little screw on the inner side of the upper jaw. Is it to hold the screw mason? |
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#18 | |
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#20 |
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I have seen setscrews before on early patilla Miquelet locks. This lock has the hole, but the screw is missing. My father purchased the lock from Dr. Lavin in 1997. The Rifle Shoppe sells a cast reproduction of it, Item #614 "James Lavin's 1650's Miquelet Lock".
Last edited by dana_w; 9th December 2012 at 01:46 PM. Reason: Simple Edit |
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#21 |
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Hello, Migueleter
The fact that an Italian gun is mounted with a key (lock) de patilla, Spanish, Catalan-miguelete or should not mislead: this key (lock) key member of the group share the same Mediterranean and horizontal trigger system: lock a Roman. agujeta. morlacca or lock the mojacca. Even locks "to the Roman" have been built in Spain, and has influenced the lock "to the three modes" Spanish Affectionately from Argentina, Fernando K |
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#22 | ||||
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Hola Fernando.
Quote:
The material is iron. Quote:
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#23 |
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Hola. tocayo
Si se me permite, voy a escribir en castellano, para que se entienda lo que quiero expresar. La técnica no es el grabado, sino el "repujado", "repousse", en francés. Se trata de desplazar el material, sin sacado de virutas.... Fernando K In other words, the technique is not engraving but the so called "repoussé", a French term also used in english, that defines the 'displacing' of the material without shavings removal. This technique we call in portuguese 'repuchado'. . Last edited by fernando; 9th December 2012 at 05:30 PM. Reason: translation/interpretation. |
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#24 | |
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Dana
I honestly never saw a setscrew in patillas I have owned, handled, or viewed in books, magazines, and on the internet. Perhaps because most images show only the outside of the lock and/or I wasn't paying attention. A quick review of Lavin and Neal revealed no such setscrew. So once again, you, Broadaxe, and fernando have brought interesting things to light. I love this forum. Fernando K Quote:
On another matter, on an earlier post I mentioned that the use of the patilla on scavezzos was "interesting". Poor choice of terms, it seems. By "interesting", not out of ignorance, but smug affirmation that often the scavezzos were fitted with patilla locks because they were considered more robust, reliable, and not fussy about flints; virtues a coach guard would want. That make sense? |
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I could be wrong Miqueleter. I checked the hole in the top jaw of my lock, and it is not threaded. I have seen these holes before, sometimes with screws. Maybe a retaining pin was used on some early top jaw screws. Lavin references Espinar's discussion of retaining pins (Fieles / Fiel) that were used on cock and battery screws. See page 164 and 165 of The History of Spanish Firearms.
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#26 |
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Maybe the purpose is different. Fieles are applied to keep a static position, whereas the screws that fix the jaw screw ought to have the ability to be screwed and unscrewed with a relative easiness. I have checked my set crew to respond to post #22 . It is in a poor condition; i will not take it off again. Its point is worn; i couldn't figure out whether it ended in an actual pin or flat shape. But it all appears that its body has a thread; at least it went out and back in with a screweing movement.
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#27 |
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Hello:
To operate the "set screw", a channel is required in the jaw screw, which can not be noticed in the lock the post number 20. I do not know if Fernando lock has this ... Affectionately. Fernando K . Last edited by fernando; 12th December 2012 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Translation correction atempt |
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#28 |
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Hola:
Para actuar, el "set screw" requiere un canal en el tornillo pèdrero (flint screw), que no se observa en la llave (lock) del post numero 20. No sé si el arma de Fernando la tiene.... Afeectuosamente. Fernando K |
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#29 |
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Hola Fernando,
I am not sure if it has to be always as you say. If there is a channel, you have to insert the setscrew always in the same position, which is not so viable, once the flints don't always have the same thickness, thus requiring different settings. |
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#30 |
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Hola, Fernando
No estoy de acuerdo contigo. El tornillo pedrero (flint screw) queda en la misma posición, haciendo presión sobre la mandíbula superior, cualquiera sea la medida de la piedra (flint), y en consecuencia, el agujero roscado pàra el "set screw" debería quedar enfrentado al canal (channel) del tornillo pedrero (flint screw) Afectuosamente, y pese a las dificultades de la traducción, Fernando K |
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