Tourist indian knife?

carlos · 16th September 2005, 05:00 PM

HELLO !!
I HAVE THIS INDIAN KNIFE 3 YEARS AGO, I BOUGHT IN AN ANTIQUES MARKET IN SPAIN. IS A TOURIST KNIFE OR IS OLD?. THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION!!
CARLOS

Rick · 16th September 2005, 05:14 PM

Hi Carlos ,
Nice new work .
Not likely antique .
This bird's eye pattern in the blade is characteristic of new work coming out of India .

Very pretty ; I have a stone hilted example myself .

Battara · 16th September 2005, 08:46 PM

I agree with Chopped Liver...er...um...I mean Rick.

This is a new piece that came from India, the koftgari is nice, but on the base of the hilt the Mughals would not have done the koftgari that way. The velvet in the inside is also new. Little or no patina on any part of the piece, and, as Rick said, the bird's eye pattern in the blade is characteristic of what is now coming out of India (although it did exist back during the Mughal period too).

Rick · 16th September 2005, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree with Chopped Liver...er...um...I mean Rick.

< straightens up , adjusts tie >

" Ya know ... I don't get no respect ......... "

erlikhan · 16th September 2005, 11:22 PM

Battara,
the bird's eye pattern in the blade is characteristic of what is now coming out of India (although it did exist back during the Mughal period too).

I understand why you and others call it bird's eye for sure.Because of the shapes. But what you say about its existence in Moghul period confused me. I have thought till now, that all the new daggers with this bird's eye pattern or whatever is called, are all factory produced. Not hand forged. Correct? Also that is why they are always dull compared to antique hand forged wootz kinds, which ended in 1940's I guess. So you say that this pattern was being hand forged in the similar shapes in past, and now imitated right?
regards

carlos · 18th September 2005, 02:13 PM

THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE ANSWERS!!
CARLOS

Rick · 18th September 2005, 03:49 PM

Erlikhan , I think many of these blades are still made at Mom and Pop forges in small villages .

ksbhati · 23rd September 2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I understand why you and others call it bird's eye for sure.Because of the shapes. But what you say about its existence in Moghul period confused me. I have thought till now, that all the new daggers with this bird's eye pattern or whatever is called, are all factory produced. Not hand forged. Correct? Also that is why they are always dull compared to antique hand forged wootz kinds, which ended in 1940's I guess. So you say that this pattern was being hand forged in the similar shapes in past, and now imitated right?
regards

Hi,

The pattern welded blades coming out of india are still hand forged. The birds eye is not the only pattern that is forged but is undoubtedly the most popular. The reason that the blades are dull is because Indian law requires them to be dull. If the blade is sharpened, then by law you require to have an arms license to carry them. Most traders etc. who have to carry these items insist to the smiths that they are made dull so that there is no complication. The idea is that whoever wants a sharp blade can have it sharpened at his end.

What is not usually mentioned is that most of these blades are not temper forged unless one specifically requests tempering. There I think the smiths are cutting corners to bring down the costs.

All the existing patterns of pattern welded damascus are based upon old patterns from the Mughal/Rajput period. Even the birds eye pattern is originally from that period.

Hope the above answers some of your queries.

Best regards,

Karni

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd September 2005, 05:33 PM

Hi Karni,

Nice to hear from you, and thank you for clarifying things.

Does this mean, that old blade will be made dull for this reason, or is it only newer blades?

Does the law in India make a difference on newer weapons and antic weapons?

Jens

ksbhati · 25th September 2005, 10:15 PM

Hi Jens,

No, I dont think they would damage an old blade this way...specially not one which has clear pattern be it wootz or mechanical damascus. Most dealers and traders are well aware of the value of the antique pieces. Of course there may be the odd one which may have been dulled due to this reason, but I dont think any of the really valuable pieces would be.

The new pieces are a different matter. It is just not worth the risk to have them sharp and be hauled up in case your goods are inspected. The belief is that anyone wanting a sharpened blade can have it done himself by any competent smith.

Best regards,

Karni

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2005, 10:41 PM

Hi Karni,
Thanks for your answer. I understand what you write, but fail to understand the logic. Most people attacked by someone are stabbed, not cut, so where is the logic?
I understand if you prefere not to answer the question, but you must admitt thet it is a bit strange.

Kind regards

Jens

kai · 27th September 2005, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Most people attacked by someone are stabbed, not cut, so where is the logic?

Well, weapon laws and logic seem to be a bit of an oxymoron - just about anywhere in the world AFAIK...

kai · 27th September 2005, 10:14 AM

Hi Karni,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksbhati

The reason that the blades are dull is because Indian law requires them to be dull. If the blade is sharpened, then by law you require to have an arms license to carry them.

Does this also apply to tools like kitchen knives? Or is there a definition of "weapon" like double-edged, size, I-know-it-when-I-see-it?

Regards,
Kai

16th September 2005, 05:00 PM	#1
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Tourist indian knife? HELLO !! I HAVE THIS INDIAN KNIFE 3 YEARS AGO, I BOUGHT IN AN ANTIQUES MARKET IN SPAIN. IS A TOURIST KNIFE OR IS OLD?. THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION!! CARLOS Attached Images

18th September 2005, 02:13 PM	#6
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	THANKS!! THANKS EVERYBODY FOR THE ANSWERS!! CARLOS

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16th September 2005, 05:14 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Carlos , Nice new work . Not likely antique . This bird's eye pattern in the blade is characteristic of new work coming out of India . Very pretty ; I have a stone hilted example myself .

16th September 2005, 08:46 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I agree with Chopped Liver...er...um...I mean Rick. This is a new piece that came from India, the koftgari is nice, but on the base of the hilt the Mughals would not have done the koftgari that way. The velvet in the inside is also new. Little or no patina on any part of the piece, and, as Rick said, the bird's eye pattern in the blade is characteristic of what is now coming out of India (although it did exist back during the Mughal period too).

16th September 2005, 11:22 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Battara, the bird's eye pattern in the blade is characteristic of what is now coming out of India (although it did exist back during the Mughal period too). I understand why you and others call it bird's eye for sure.Because of the shapes. But what you say about its existence in Moghul period confused me. I have thought till now, that all the new daggers with this bird's eye pattern or whatever is called, are all factory produced. Not hand forged. Correct? Also that is why they are always dull compared to antique hand forged wootz kinds, which ended in 1940's I guess. So you say that this pattern was being hand forged in the similar shapes in past, and now imitated right? regards

18th September 2005, 03:49 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Erlikhan , I think many of these blades are still made at Mom and Pop forges in small villages .

23rd September 2005, 05:33 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Karni, Nice to hear from you, and thank you for clarifying things. Does this mean, that old blade will be made dull for this reason, or is it only newer blades? Does the law in India make a difference on newer weapons and antic weapons? Jens

25th September 2005, 10:15 PM	#10
ksbhati Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Rajasthan, INDIA Posts: 25	Hi Jens, No, I dont think they would damage an old blade this way...specially not one which has clear pattern be it wootz or mechanical damascus. Most dealers and traders are well aware of the value of the antique pieces. Of course there may be the odd one which may have been dulled due to this reason, but I dont think any of the really valuable pieces would be. The new pieces are a different matter. It is just not worth the risk to have them sharp and be hauled up in case your goods are inspected. The belief is that anyone wanting a sharpened blade can have it done himself by any competent smith. Best regards, Karni

25th September 2005, 10:41 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Karni, Thanks for your answer. I understand what you write, but fail to understand the logic. Most people attacked by someone are stabbed, not cut, so where is the logic? I understand if you prefere not to answer the question, but you must admitt thet it is a bit strange. Kind regards Jens