scottish officers dirk recent eby

VANDOO · 29th August 2012, 11:13 PM

THIS RECENTLY CLOSED ON EBAY. I DIDN'T BID AS SOMETHING JUST LOOKED A BIT OFF TO ME. DID ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS ITEM AND IF SO WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON IT. SORRY I DIDN'T GET MORE OF THE PICTURES WHICH SHOW IT MUCH BETTER.

M ELEY · 30th August 2012, 11:07 AM

Hmmm...agreed, Barry. Very unusual, but I don't know if its a fake. Most have the carved black wood with brass nails. Perhaps this is an 'undress-type' of dirk? Like the Japanese NCO swords with all-metal hilts rather than the wrapped silk over rayskin. Just thinking aloud. Awaiting others opinions

Mark

laEspadaAncha · 19th September 2012, 07:13 PM

IMO the brass has an Indian 'flavor' to it, and to cast a reasonably accurate depiction of a thistle hilt from a dirk would have been an easy task for a brass sculptor on the subcontinent.

You'd be amazed (then again, probably not!

) at the diversity of (brass) forms I've encountered in the souks and bazaars in India, made during and for the British during the British Raj.

A couple other observations:

- The uneven patina on the brass hilt IMO speaks to an object that was hung, vertically, and more or less unpertrubed for several decades.

- The blade appears to have a hollow grind, similar to (though longer than) the Faribairn Sykes F-S stiletto and similarly profiled fighting knives that evolved as a result of the fighting style adapted & developed by Fairbairn and Sykes while training the Shanghai police during the early 20th century. There were several similarly-profiled fighting knives made during the 2nd quarter of the 20th century (and ever since!).

- While I am by no means sure, I perceive what might(?) be interpreted as an anchor on the side of the pommel. Might this indicate a naval association? Maybe a one-off commissioned by someone from the Royal Navy, as a 'bungalow piece' or otherwise?

I went and found the listing and pulled a couple additional photos, and have highlighted on one what appears as if it could be an anchor:

laEspadaAncha · 19th September 2012, 07:38 PM

I'd also add that the suspension loop on the back of the scabbard seems far more suited to hanging from a wall than from one's belt.

Furthermore, the (awfully) flat back of the scabbard is as flat if not flatter than the sgian dubh scabbards which unlike dirk scabbards are actually meant to be worn agaisnt one's skin, though again, such a design would be perfect for hanging on the wall.

.

laEspadaAncha · 19th September 2012, 07:47 PM

Okay... one last thought. Make that two.

First, the vestigial pockets that would have housed a by-knife and fork are just that - vestiges of pockets - another likely indication this was made to hang on a wall, possibly with a surplus blade.

Second, IMO the person who spent nearly $500 on this got hosed. For half the price of a dirk, IMO they bought just that - half a dirk.

Then again, maybe it was a niche piece for a dedicated dirk collector, for whom $500 was probably money well spent on a one-off, even if made as a decorative piece.

I guess that was three thoughts.

Battara · 20th September 2012, 03:39 AM

Well (being a deep subject

) on the one hand brass makes sense for a naval dirk - resists corrosion.

On the other hand I am uncomfortable with the blade - looks too prestine to me as well as not the right form for a Scottish dirk.

colin henshaw · 20th September 2012, 10:11 AM

It really looks like something made up for wall decoration...

Norman McCormick · 22nd September 2012, 10:46 PM

Hi Barry,
Don't know how I missed this.

Looks like a load of Victorian or later nonsense, everything is wrong. Might make a paper knife at a push. I am glad you didn't bid on it.
Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 22nd September 2012, 10:49 PM

Perhaps it was a theatrical dagger for the stage? I know they made such, loose- based on originals?

Norman McCormick · 22nd September 2012, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Perhaps it was a theatrical dagger for the stage? I know they made such, loose- based on originals?

"Is this a dagger which I see before me" ???mmmmmm!!!

P.S. Apologies Mark just couldn't help it.

VANDOO · 24th September 2012, 07:38 PM

MY IMPRESIONS OF THE ITEM AGREE WITH THOSE STATED. IT WOULD MAKE AN ATTRACTIVE WALL HANGER OR PROP BUT IF THE FELLOW WHO BOUGHT IT WAS EXPECTING A REAL DAGGER I AM SURE HE WAS SORELY DISAPOINTED.
IF THERE WAS PROVENANCE OF IT BEING USED BY A FAMOUS ACTOR IN A VICTORIAN PLAY PERHAPS IT WOULD FIND VALUE IN THAT FIELD OF COLLECTING. THANKS FOR THE DISCUSSION WE CAN LEARN EVEN FROM AN ITEM LIKE THIS ONE.

29th August 2012, 11:13 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	scottish officers dirk recent eby THIS RECENTLY CLOSED ON EBAY. I DIDN'T BID AS SOMETHING JUST LOOKED A BIT OFF TO ME. DID ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS ITEM AND IF SO WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON IT. SORRY I DIDN'T GET MORE OF THE PICTURES WHICH SHOW IT MUCH BETTER. Attached Images

19th September 2012, 07:13 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	IMO the brass has an Indian 'flavor' to it, and to cast a reasonably accurate depiction of a thistle hilt from a dirk would have been an easy task for a brass sculptor on the subcontinent. You'd be amazed (then again, probably not! ) at the diversity of (brass) forms I've encountered in the souks and bazaars in India, made during and for the British during the British Raj. A couple other observations: - The uneven patina on the brass hilt IMO speaks to an object that was hung, vertically, and more or less unpertrubed for several decades. - The blade appears to have a hollow grind, similar to (though longer than) the Faribairn Sykes F-S stiletto and similarly profiled fighting knives that evolved as a result of the fighting style adapted & developed by Fairbairn and Sykes while training the Shanghai police during the early 20th century. There were several similarly-profiled fighting knives made during the 2nd quarter of the 20th century (and ever since!). - While I am by no means sure, I perceive what might(?) be interpreted as an anchor on the side of the pommel. Might this indicate a naval association? Maybe a one-off commissioned by someone from the Royal Navy, as a 'bungalow piece' or otherwise? I went and found the listing and pulled a couple additional photos, and have highlighted on one what appears as if it could be an anchor: Attached Images

19th September 2012, 07:38 PM	#4
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I'd also add that the suspension loop on the back of the scabbard seems far more suited to hanging from a wall than from one's belt. Furthermore, the (awfully) flat back of the scabbard is as flat if not flatter than the sgian dubh scabbards which unlike dirk scabbards are actually meant to be worn agaisnt one's skin, though again, such a design would be perfect for hanging on the wall. . Attached Images

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30th August 2012, 11:07 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Hmmm...agreed, Barry. Very unusual, but I don't know if its a fake. Most have the carved black wood with brass nails. Perhaps this is an 'undress-type' of dirk? Like the Japanese NCO swords with all-metal hilts rather than the wrapped silk over rayskin. Just thinking aloud. Awaiting others opinions Mark

19th September 2012, 07:47 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Okay... one last thought. Make that two. First, the vestigial pockets that would have housed a by-knife and fork are just that - vestiges of pockets - another likely indication this was made to hang on a wall, possibly with a surplus blade. Second, IMO the person who spent nearly $500 on this got hosed. For half the price of a dirk, IMO they bought just that - half a dirk. Then again, maybe it was a niche piece for a dedicated dirk collector, for whom $500 was probably money well spent on a one-off, even if made as a decorative piece. I guess that was three thoughts.

20th September 2012, 03:39 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Well (being a deep subject ) on the one hand brass makes sense for a naval dirk - resists corrosion. On the other hand I am uncomfortable with the blade - looks too prestine to me as well as not the right form for a Scottish dirk.

20th September 2012, 10:11 AM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	It really looks like something made up for wall decoration...

22nd September 2012, 10:46 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Barry, Don't know how I missed this. Looks like a load of Victorian or later nonsense, everything is wrong. Might make a paper knife at a push. I am glad you didn't bid on it. Regards, Norman.

22nd September 2012, 10:49 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Perhaps it was a theatrical dagger for the stage? I know they made such, loose- based on originals?

24th September 2012, 07:38 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY IMPRESIONS OF THE ITEM AGREE WITH THOSE STATED. IT WOULD MAKE AN ATTRACTIVE WALL HANGER OR PROP BUT IF THE FELLOW WHO BOUGHT IT WAS EXPECTING A REAL DAGGER I AM SURE HE WAS SORELY DISAPOINTED. IF THERE WAS PROVENANCE OF IT BEING USED BY A FAMOUS ACTOR IN A VICTORIAN PLAY PERHAPS IT WOULD FIND VALUE IN THAT FIELD OF COLLECTING. THANKS FOR THE DISCUSSION WE CAN LEARN EVEN FROM AN ITEM LIKE THIS ONE.