Sword hilt for ID

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I think that the Spanish colonial/Mexican opinion is the closest until someone presents material to refute it. Under my previous response, I mentioned American eagle-heads with 'very similar' form and I'll stick by with it, in that some of those pieces in the Lattimer collection are obviously later Mexican pieces. Your friend would benefit from that book by Hartlzer I mentioned earlier.

Plate 327, the closest to our eagle with the exact beak pattern (almost ibis-like), eye and feather pattern on a sword by William Ball of Baltimore (1763-1815). His other swords, listed in plates above, all extremely similar.

Along with having the book in hand, I also have many scans of the eagle and bird pommels (indeed could post all the examples you have listed). I also find no examples in Hartzler's book as obviously Mexican, nor listed as such. Again, I would continue to think it remiss for any to use Ball's work as relevant to the sword in the original post to this thread and indeed the only similarities that of birds with feathers. The same true for the Medicus collection book in reference to eagles found there.

Cheers

GC

[Atlantia]

The beak of that example is more akin to the carved ivory Dutch example and both are actually eagle like.
The beak on Nando's example is more like an Ibis or even a parrot.
I'm not saying it couldn't be an eagle. But if it is an eagle then the person who cast it didn't know what an eagle looks like.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The beak of that example is more akin to the carved ivory Dutch example and both are actually eagle like.
The beak on Nando's example is more like an Ibis or even a parrot.
I'm not saying it couldn't be an eagle. But if it is an eagle then the person who cast it didn't know what an eagle looks like.

I would be on the side of those suggesting that the beak (and head ... and possibly neck) in "my" example, is that of a specific bird and not just an general figure.
On the other hand and, assuming i have no ornithologist notions at all, once rejecting the eagle, ibis and parrot are not more fortunate suggestions .

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The beak of that example is more akin to the carved ivory Dutch example and both are actually eagle like.
The beak on Nando's example is more like an Ibis or even a parrot.
I'm not saying it couldn't be an eagle. But if it is an eagle then the person who cast it didn't know what an eagle looks like.

I have enough of a picture libray that I can match a good many in fair comparison. The one that has been mentioned as Dutch and then mention of kastane in this thread prompts one from my unsorted folder.

I was really a hold out about the influences of world travels reaching Europe and the kastane bridge particularly until seeing a magnificent portrait of an Englishman in battle of the English civil war with a truly serious kastane hilt.

So anyway, this one for the other hanger of the thread I will refrain from posting all the Shriner's scimitars variations I have come across There are a number of full brass hilts of eagle and bird form associated with the Americas and my picture files (many thousands) for those of North America (ie USA) can be broken down pretty easily between the bird and eagle types.

It is the bird head pommels of generally English patterns that the Lattimer collection fill the pages along with the true crested eagles. As important in that collection and presentation are the pages of Roman and knighlty form pommels.

I found Jim's classification of toucan quite apt and had thought that immediately myself before he wrote it (strange minds do sometimes think alike). My own classifications of three major players in American Eaglehead Pommels is broken down to Larry, Curly and Moe of the three stooges (Osborn, Bolton and Ketand) so I can appreciate whatever one may call an item but the bird in question beginning this thread is none of those.

Cheers

GC

Cheers

GC

[Atlantia]

Hi Glen,

I also thought it reminiscent of a Toucan funnily enough.
So what's your conclusion?
I know the Roman hilts that you speak of, but again they couldn't be miscast as parrots... well the ones I'm familiar with anyway.
Even the quite stylised ones are recognisable as Eagles.
Hold on I've got one somewhere.....


Edit:
Even when the form is quite stylised as in this one, it's usually still recognisable as an eagle. As in my dagger pommel below.

[Hotspur]

Hi Gene

I know the Roman hilts that you speak of, but again they couldn't be miscast as parrots... well the ones I'm familiar with anyway.

I was simply encapsulating what can be found in Hartzler's book on the Lattimer collection, No connection implied to the sword initiating this thread, simply pointing out (again) that the book has nothing to offer in regard to the sword under discussion.

Cheers

GC

[Jim McDougall]

Glen and Gene thank you guys for the kind notes on my toucan suggestion. Although it seemed rather 'left field', it seemed a compelling enough idea to place in the discussion here, which has proven really intriguing.
I think another feature in Fernando's sword which to me stands out for a Mexican weapon is the heavy plumage which seems to correspond to the eagle in the Mexican emblem.
In the tropical regions of Mexico it does seem possible that an artisan fashioning a cast hilt might have these influences coupled with the familiarity of the tropical birds such as toucan. The often dramatic stylization and simply general artistic license would seem to offer considerable ground for anomalies such as this.

Fernando, still fascinated by the markings you have shown from the blade. Where are they situated, and any chance that close ups might show them in place?

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

While I did agree in first impression in similarity to a toucan, the stretch to apply it to the Mexican eagle is as wrong headed as applying the Lattimer collection as examples of the bird. The Aztec mythology of Huitzilopochtli in no way included a toucan. It is true though that there were many tropical birds and colorful feathers well noted.

All in all (aside from the blade itself) a tourista middle eastern brass hilt is as viable an explanation as projecting the possibility to north and south America. The condor, certainly another bird used for sword hilts.

Cheers

GC

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Fernando, still fascinated by the markings you have shown from the blade.

Me too, Jim; markings are one of the most captivating parts i find in weapons.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Where are they situated ...

At the forte, said the guy in the beginning

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... and any chance that close ups might show them in place? ...

I am trying; not an easy task, though. The owner's enthusiasm cooled down a lot when he realized this is no Islamic "medieval" sword