European Archery/ Agincourt/crecy/etc

[ashoka]

interesting book Agincourt Juliet Barker. Lots of archery stats leading up to the French Campaign. All able bodied men between 16 and 60 to train with the bow every Sunday or feast day. Those who couldn't fire more than 10 aimed arrows per min not fit for military service, experienced archers could fire up to 25 per min. Average draw weight of English long bow 150-160 lbs and could fire up to 240 yds, up to 150 yards Bodkin heads could go through thick armour fairly easily. Another interesting fact, english yew was way too poor quality to make the better bows, the yew used was imported from Spain, and the Mediterranean. Each archer at Agincourt was issued with between 60 and 72 arrows which would have been loosed within about 7-4 minutes. They had a lot of arrows stockpiled for wars of this sort.. One London fletcher was paid £37 10s (approx £15,500 at todays money) to make 12,000 arrows .. all interesting stuff..

[kahnjar1]

A bit of trivia, and completely ON track here, as when (and if) the French ever captured an English bowman, they cut off his two fingers which drew the bow string. The two fingered sign used today originated from this, as those who still had their fingers intact held them up to show the enemy.............so nothing is new in these modern times.

[ashoka]

An even more trivial piece of trivia, the expression to 'keep something under ones hat...' The Genoese mercenary crossbowmen used by the French at Crecy could not fire anything as their bowstrings were shrunk and warped by the torrential rain. English archers had on the other hand developed the crafty habit of keeping their bowstrings tucked away neatly under their hats and helmets thus keeping them dry and servicable..

[VANDOO]

A INTERESTING READ IS "THE ARCHERS TALE" BY BERNARD CORNWELL. IT IS HISTORICAL FICTION BUT HAS A LOT OF REAL RESEARCHED INFORMATION AND IS A GOOD STORY IF YOU LIKE TO READ.
THE BOW IS A SERIOUS WEAPON AS WELL AS A VERY GOOD HUNTING WEAPON. SOCIETYS WHO USED THEM A LOT FOR HUNTING USUALLY HAD COMPETICIAN AMONG THE TRIBE SO OFTEN GOT VERY GOOD WITH THEM.
THE PERSIAN EMPIRE HAD ARCHERS FROM SOME ETHINIC GROUP WHO MADE THEM VERY SUCESSFUL. THE ENGLISH LONGBOW WAS ANOTHER EXAMPLE . THE CHINESE USED THEM IN MASS AS THE PERSIANS DID.
BUT ARCHERY FROM HORSEBACK IT WAS EITHER THE MONGOLS OR THE AMERICAN INDIANS WHO WERE THE MASTERS. THE JAPANESE ALSO DO A GOOD JOB FROM HORSEBACK AS WELL.

[trenchwarfare]

Most of the "English" bowmen, were actually Welsh. They started at the age of five. Once they reached manhood, the usual practice range was 200 yards. Their arrows, were a "clotheyard" long, and drawn fully to the ear. Reportedly, they were known to penetrate through a 4" oak door. As late as WWI, it was argued as to whether issue rifles, or longbows. And, early in WWII, longbows were issued to Homeguard personnel, to hunt for possible German invaders. Or, so I have read.

[ashoka]

Yep those oak doors didn't stand a chance on the battlefield..

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by ashoka

Yep those oak doors didn't stand a chance on the battlefield..

castles had oak doors. and wood shutters on windows & crenelations.

if they could get thru 4in. of oak, i wonder how effective they were against a crossbowman's pavise (below). crossbows while powerful in the short ranges had an abysmal rate of fire. the french hired milanese crossbowmen to counter the english archers, then never deployed them effectively, in fact tending to dismiss them and even trampling them in their eagerness to charge the english peasant trash who dared try to fight their superiors, the elite french aristocrats. the battle of poitiers was another example. the english feigned retreat on one flank, then when the french charged, they showered them with arrows. they reported arrows glancing off the improved armour of the french, so they shot the horses instead, their armour being thinner on the horses flanks. even the french cavalry themselves had soft spots in the armour at joints & visor openings, and the bowmen were good enough to hit them at closer ranges.

p.s. - i did initially mention the welsh wales is about 10 miles west of where i live.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

Most of the "English" bowmen, were actually Welsh. They started at the age of five. Once they reached manhood, the usual practice range was 200 yards. Their arrows, were a "clotheyard" long, and drawn fully to the ear. Reportedly, they were known to penetrate through a 4" oak door. As late as WWI, it was argued as to whether issue rifles, or longbows. And, early in WWII, longbows were issued to Homeguard personnel, to hunt for possible German invaders. Or, so I have read.

I have a friend who is really into traditional archery. Solid little treetrunk of a chap, about 5'5" looks just like Gimli from LOTR. He says that at about that range he expects to be able hit a bail of hay sized target, with luck a torso sized one.
OK, thats a stationary target, but it shows how with some judgement these guys would quickly cause pandemonium amongst the ranks of their attackers.

[David]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

A bit of trivia, and completely ON track here, as when (and if) the French ever captured an English bowman, they cut off his two fingers which drew the bow string. The two fingered sign used today originated from this, as those who still had their fingers intact held them up to show the enemy.............so nothing is new in these modern times.

For what it is worth this legend has been discounted by Snopes. Much of what they say coincides with the video that Chris has posted. Can anyone provide any actual evidence to this tale?
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.asp