The Greatest Arms Shop - Something for Everyone.

Mark · 30th August 2005, 06:58 PM

I was inspecting the cartouche on the blade of Andrew's "Oldman" dha, and it struck me that it may well be a date written in Burmese numerals. They are very stretched out vertically, but I believe they read 1242 (if I am right, the first numeral should be a left-facing crescent, the second like the letter J without the cross at the top, the third sort of like a 9 but with an open loop, and the fourth again like a J). The Burmese calendar is based on the Chulasakarat Buddhist era, which adds 638 to the Western calendar. So if this is a date, it would be 1880.

It also looks vaguely like the Western date 1751, but I think it more likely is a Burmese date.

Do you have any close-ups of the cartouche, Andrew? I blew up a section of your picture, but it is pretty blurry.

B.I · 30th August 2005, 07:07 PM

hi mark,
until andrew replies, here is a poor, but clearer image

Andrew · 30th August 2005, 07:50 PM

I recall reading on Ashoka's website (where I first saw this sword) that the date translated to approximately 1800 C.E. My recollection is suspect, however. Here's a close-up of the cartouche:

erlikhan · 30th August 2005, 08:36 PM

Is there information about the prices of the items sold in that shop and period?

Andrew · 30th August 2005, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I was inspecting the cartouche on the blade of Andrew's "Oldman" dha, and it struck me that it may well be a date written in Burmese numerals. They are very stretched out vertically, but I believe they read 1242 (if I am right, the first numeral should be a left-facing crescent, the second like the letter J without the cross at the top, the third sort of like a 9 but with an open loop, and the fourth again like a J). The Burmese calendar is based on the Chulasakarat Buddhist era, which adds 638 to the Western calendar. So if this is a date, it would be 1880.

It also looks vaguely like the Western date 1751, but I think it more likely is a Burmese date.

Do you have any close-ups of the cartouche, Andrew? I blew up a section of your picture, but it is pretty blurry.

I agree Mark: 1242 Chulasakarat (1880 AD).

B.I · 30th August 2005, 09:10 PM

hi erlikhan,
these were catalogues and so everything was priced.
believe me, you really dont want to go down that road. 1906 prices should remain a thing of the past, as it will only lead to reminiscing and frustration. £30 will buy you all the turkish arms on that one page.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th August 2005, 09:49 PM

What does the catalogue text say about the kora at the bottom, shown on the last picture in mail #2?

Jens

B.I · 30th August 2005, 10:14 PM

hi jens,
i am not surprised you picked this one one, as it is very unusual and i think very early.
he doesnt off much past an overall description. - engraved full length, worn and inlaid with brass at the head. the back is engraved and inlaid with a band of brass. iron hilt, fluted, engraved and inlaid with brass. black leather covered sheath. length 27.75 inches. end width 3.25 inches. a 'very old specimen'.

he does list another, vitually identical a few years later, but without a scabbard (unless its the same one and he lost the scabbard :-)

Mark · 30th August 2005, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I agree Mark: 1242 Chulasakarat (1880 AD).

Yes, it is very clear in the close-up. I just noticed that there also is a numeral 2 stamped or engraved in the blade near the forte, and its almost identical in size and shape to the second 2 in the cartouche. This is such an interesting sword.

zalmoxis · 2nd September 2005, 01:14 AM

What about this wall: The Ward collection 19th century, now at Smithsonian.

zalmoxis · 2nd September 2005, 01:18 AM

The next room.

BluErf · 3rd September 2005, 02:19 AM

Oh my goodness... visual... overload...

VANDOO · 3rd September 2005, 05:53 AM

THIS IS THE KIND OF STUFF I LOVE AND CAN DAY DREAM ABOUT ANYONE HAVE MORE PICTURES? PERHAPS WE CAN HAVE A COOLEST ROOM DISPLAY CONTEST.HOW COOL WOULD IT HAVE BEEN TO HAVE A FINE COLLECTION DISPLAYED LIKE THAT. MY EFFORTS PALE BY COMPARISON.
I WONDER IF THE SMITHSONIAN HAS ANY OF THE PROVENANCE AND STORYS THAT WENT WITH THE COLLECTION OR JUST A LOT OF STORED STUFF WITH TAGS THAT ARE UNREADABLE OR CRUMBELING TO DUST DUE TO ACID IN THE PAPER. I HAVE SEEN SOME COPYS OF PAGES FROM THE OLDMANS CATALOGS BUT DON'T OWN ANY AS I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE VERY EXPENSIVE BUT I HAVE ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING THRU THE OLD ARMS CATALOGS. SOME ARE BETTER AT IDENTIFING THE THINGS IN THEM THAN OTHERS I WONDER HOW ACCURATE OLDMANS, BANNERMAN AND SOME OF THE LARGER OLDER ONES WERE?.

30th August 2005, 06:58 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	A date on Andrew's dha? I was inspecting the cartouche on the blade of Andrew's "Oldman" dha, and it struck me that it may well be a date written in Burmese numerals. They are very stretched out vertically, but I believe they read 1242 (if I am right, the first numeral should be a left-facing crescent, the second like the letter J without the cross at the top, the third sort of like a 9 but with an open loop, and the fourth again like a J). The Burmese calendar is based on the Chulasakarat Buddhist era, which adds 638 to the Western calendar. So if this is a date, it would be 1880. It also looks vaguely like the Western date 1751, but I think it more likely is a Burmese date. Do you have any close-ups of the cartouche, Andrew? I blew up a section of your picture, but it is pretty blurry. Attached Images

30th August 2005, 07:50 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I recall reading on Ashoka's website (where I first saw this sword) that the date translated to approximately 1800 C.E. My recollection is suspect, however. Here's a close-up of the cartouche: Last edited by Andrew; 30th August 2005 at 09:23 PM.

2nd September 2005, 01:14 AM	#10
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	An impresive wall. What about this wall: The Ward collection 19th century, now at Smithsonian. Attached Images

2nd September 2005, 01:18 AM	#11
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	There is more.... The next room. Attached Images

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30th August 2005, 07:07 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi mark, until andrew replies, here is a poor, but clearer image Attached Images

30th August 2005, 08:36 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Is there information about the prices of the items sold in that shop and period?

30th August 2005, 09:10 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi erlikhan, these were catalogues and so everything was priced. believe me, you really dont want to go down that road. 1906 prices should remain a thing of the past, as it will only lead to reminiscing and frustration. £30 will buy you all the turkish arms on that one page.

30th August 2005, 09:49 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	What does the catalogue text say about the kora at the bottom, shown on the last picture in mail #2? Jens

30th August 2005, 10:14 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jens, i am not surprised you picked this one one, as it is very unusual and i think very early. he doesnt off much past an overall description. - engraved full length, worn and inlaid with brass at the head. the back is engraved and inlaid with a band of brass. iron hilt, fluted, engraved and inlaid with brass. black leather covered sheath. length 27.75 inches. end width 3.25 inches. a 'very old specimen'. he does list another, vitually identical a few years later, but without a scabbard (unless its the same one and he lost the scabbard :-)

3rd September 2005, 02:19 AM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh my goodness... visual... overload...

3rd September 2005, 05:53 AM	#13
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS IS THE KIND OF STUFF I LOVE AND CAN DAY DREAM ABOUT ANYONE HAVE MORE PICTURES? PERHAPS WE CAN HAVE A COOLEST ROOM DISPLAY CONTEST.HOW COOL WOULD IT HAVE BEEN TO HAVE A FINE COLLECTION DISPLAYED LIKE THAT. MY EFFORTS PALE BY COMPARISON. I WONDER IF THE SMITHSONIAN HAS ANY OF THE PROVENANCE AND STORYS THAT WENT WITH THE COLLECTION OR JUST A LOT OF STORED STUFF WITH TAGS THAT ARE UNREADABLE OR CRUMBELING TO DUST DUE TO ACID IN THE PAPER. I HAVE SEEN SOME COPYS OF PAGES FROM THE OLDMANS CATALOGS BUT DON'T OWN ANY AS I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE VERY EXPENSIVE BUT I HAVE ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING THRU THE OLD ARMS CATALOGS. SOME ARE BETTER AT IDENTIFING THE THINGS IN THEM THAN OTHERS I WONDER HOW ACCURATE OLDMANS, BANNERMAN AND SOME OF THE LARGER OLDER ONES WERE?.