Maghrebi Moroccan Nimcha??

[archer]

Just came in today 28 3/4 inch " Damascus" blade. Is this the real deal or should I be looking for the Belly Dancer? I assumed the pattern to have been etched onto the blade, but, some areas are very strangely smooth yet have a vague pattern in those smoothed areas and in the fuller. What do you make of it? Possible blade origins? thanks, Steve

[kahnjar1]

Hi Steve,
Yes Moroccan Nimcha/Saif. The handle could be a replacement by the look of it. Blade looks genuine enough but I can't comment on the damascus. Someone with more expertise than I will no doubt give you the answer you are hoping for.
Fire the Bellydancer---she is not needed
Regards Stu

[ariel]

The pattern is not etched, it is 100% real mechanical damascus. Originally it had a "bas relief" effect, with deep undulating furrows. But it was very aggressively smoothed over, and some pics show islets of the original surface. I think it was intentional, to achieve a conventionally-even surface, but IMHO, the original must have been stunningly pretty.
There is no indication that the saber was maliciously assembled from spare parts, everything looks very original. You got yourself a "cut-above-the-rest" Maghrebi Saif. Congratulations!

[Iain]

What ariel said. The decorated guard is also a cut above many examples and a good fit for this blade. A very nice example and certainly well above the average nimcha seeen.

[Rick]

Go find the belly dancer; I'll hold the sword ...

[A.alnakkas]

Very nice piece Steve!

I am aswell interested in knowing the origin of the blade! but probably european?

[Atlantia]

Hi Steve.

Interesting pattern welded blade. The (In)famous raindrop/birdseye pattern.
I believe that the antique examples of this pattern tend to be highly polished and lightly etched in a similar way to when Turkish ribbon/star is used in a kilic/yat with a flat edge and not deeply etched to provide a very stark high contrast like when star is used in the fullers of a Kindjal.
Yours seems to have been deeply etched all over like a kris.... or a modern 'reimagined' Indian raindrop/birdseye pattern blade and then somewhat cleaned possibly then lightly etched again?
It has all the features of a modern Indian made blade, often mounted as a Tulwar, but in this case mounted as a Nimcha.
Do you see any signs of differential tempering or use/sharpening beyond the uniform cleaning?

I would guess (and it's just my gut feeling) that this is a sword of Indian origin and probobly from the later 20thC.

Just my 2p worth. I could be bonkers of course. Still one up from a dancers sword in any event.

ATB
Gene

P.S. I do see atypical even one-off Indian pattern welded blades occasionally. Last year I saw a Nazi boot knife in raindrop pattern with Afrika Korps koftgari decoration.
These chaps make anything that takes their fancy.

[A.alnakkas]

Good point Gene, but I dont fully agree.. It is still possible that this is a made up (or mish mash) piece but there are differences between this blade and modern indian ones, but the most obvious is the lack of an indian ricasso thingy.

I am no expert in the field of patterns, but it seems to me that the blade is old, was heavily rusty, cleaned and then etched. The pattern can be seen moving consistantly between "normal" parts and the pitted parts as if it isnt effected by the age wear which have created the pitting. The blade tip seems to be reshaped.

Regardless, I like the piece anyways, probably was a looker back in the day ;-)

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Good point Gene, but I dont fully agree.. It is still possible that this is a made up (or mish mash) piece but there are differences between this blade and modern indian ones, but the most obvious is the lack of an indian ricasso thingy.

I am no expert in the field of patterns, but it seems to me that the blade is old, was heavily rusty, cleaned and then etched. The pattern can be seen moving consistantly between "normal" parts and the pitted parts as if it isnt effected by the age wear which have created the pitting. The blade tip seems to be reshaped.

Regardless, I like the piece anyways, probably was a looker back in the day ;-)

Hi Lotfy,

They are hand made and individual items mate. There are blank damascus tulwar blades with no ricasso for sale on everyones favourite auction site right now (more steeply curved).
I don't see any areas of corrosion that would indicate a long period of oxidisation. I could produce that effect in a very short time, a few weeks at most.
But like I say, just my 2p! I could be wrong.

Best
Gene

P.S. here's one from completed items, not for sale now (previosly sold) so it doesn't breech the rules for posting.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Lotfy,

They are hand made and individual items mate. There are blank damascus tulwar blades with no ricasso for sale on everyones favourite auction site right now (more steeply curved).
I don't see any areas of corrosion that would indicate a long period of oxidisation. I could produce that effect in a very short time, a few weeks at most.
But like I say, just my 2p! I could be wrong.

Best
Gene

P.S. here's one from completed items, not for sale now (previosly sold) so it doesn't breech the rules for posting.

I see. Yeah I think your right. But what about the fittings? Maybe someone ha spare nimcha parts :P

[archer]

Thanks for the input The washed out areas are mostly on one side. Hanging on a cold wall scabbard rusting?? At this stage would a light etch to even out the patchy areas be O.K.? I don't see any tempering lines. I was puzzled by the edge bluntness maybe 1/100 of INCH showing steel layers I'm a steel nut and not that familar swords. I thought it might have been blunted at some time. I don't see the normal sharpening scratches, just the tapering done during forging. Steve

Gene, Just saw your blade post this pattern is far more random.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by archer

Thanks for the input The washed out areas are mostly on one side. Hanging on a cold wall scabbard rusting?? At this stage would a light etch to even out the patchy areas be O.K.? I don't see any tempering lines. I was puzzled by the edge bluntness maybe 1/100 of INCH showing steel layers I'm a steel nut and not that familar swords. I thought it might have been blunted at some time. I don't see the normal sharpening scratches, just the tapering done during forging. Steve

Gene, Just saw your blade post this pattern is far more random.

Hi Steve,

The one I posted was just the first 'similar' example of a bare modern blade I found on ebay in completed items.

The non-sharpened edge is also indicative of modern Indian blades I'm sorry to say.
It doesn't look blunted to me, it looks like it was never sharpened.

Sorry mate
ATB
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I see. Yeah I think your right. But what about the fittings? Maybe someone ha spare nimcha parts :P

Hi Lotfy,

It could have been made that way in India or by an Indian in Morocco even.
The indian workshops turning out this type of blade are making a very wide variety of styles of both blades and fittings.
Lets see what the others think?

ATB
Gene

[Atlantia]

Steve,

You're a steel buff. Give it a flex and see if it's tempered, have a little scratch at the edge with a needle file and see how hard it is etc.

ATB
Gene

[Rick]

Originally Posted by archer

I don't see any tempering lines. I was puzzled by the edge bluntness maybe 1/100 of INCH showing steel layers I'm a steel nut and not that familar swords. I thought it might have been blunted at some time. I don't see the normal sharpening scratches, just the tapering done during forging. Steve

Steve, this may be a hint as to the origin of the blade; I have read here that sharpened sword blades may not be exported from India .

When I look at my old Indian blades the pattern welding is quite unextrordinary (nowhere near as busy a pattern), not at all like this work .

I also notice that there is no ferrule at the hilt .

[A.alnakkas]

Guess were up against a new type of fakes then.. they are getting better by the day.

[archer]

I used a small regular triangular file and also tried to see what effortless flexing
could be accomplished by placing My knee midway between the hilt and pulled back on the tip. results flexes about 5-6 inches and recovers.

The photo shows the scratch. Seems like the edge is definitely harder.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by archer

I used a small regular triangular file and also tried to see what effortless flexing
could be accomplished by placing My knee midway between the hilt and pulled back on the tip. results flexes about 5-6 inches and recovers.

Hi Steve
Well then it seems to have some spring in it which is more than many TBH.
How easily does it scratch? Any difference on the spine from the edge?

ATB
Gene

[Rick]

If that's the edge, Steve, the blade has certainly either not been sharpened or has been rebated .

Is that the file mark I see in the picture ?

[kahnjar1]

Hi Steve,
My original comment about the possibliity of a hilt replacement was based on 1.No ferrule 2. The knuckle guard recessed.
Here is a pic from an earlier post showing how the knuckle guard usually is.
Regards Stu

[G. McCormack]

Looks like an old nimcha guard with a new Indian blade and grip.

[Rick]

Looks like we're really going to have to be on our toes now .
I fear the boys from Rajahstan are branching out .

I would love to be found wrong; but I think Gene and G. are correct .

May we see the pommel end ?

Here is my old fellow .

[Dom]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

...snip...
Here is a pic from an earlier post showing how the knuckle guard usually is.

but ... it's my "nimcha" ... Stuward
pure Maghrebian (Morocco), excepted the blade as well as 98% of them
who is most certainly European

what wrote "Gene" made sense,
the Indian craftsmen (some) became too much "bloody" by the duplicates that they sprayed on the market,
not only edged weapons, but also other "ethnographic items" such as ;
astrolabes (easy to discern), Islamic's talismanic bowls (much more difficult to recognize) ... and so
they have become very clever ... too much ... Syrians also are good competitors to them on the same field ...

the nimcha blade of "archer" is very disquieting, specially in Morocco,
even in Maghreb, because looks absolutly Indian production,
I never saw a similar blade associated to a Maghrebian edged weapon
may be, is it arrived by the "maritime trade" ??

à +

Dom

[kahnjar1]

.......yes DOM it is yours. Hope using the pic was OK, but I guess a little late now Was the best example I could find from previous posts to illustrate what concerned me about the hilt on the post by Archer.
Hope all is well with you.
Regards Stu

[archer]

I edited my last post yes that is the edge. The file feels like the edge is harder than the back, later I'll try a real jewelers file. Stu, I bought it thinking the pattern was an etch job and thinking the hilt was a probable replacement.

When I started looking closer I noticed the edges bluntness and hearing so much about Arabian dance swords. I had to ask I'll ask again and post a few shots after a bit of etching. Did some Pasha want to make sure His dancing
girls didn't get too wild?

The results of the etch after degreasing only for a prep!!! Just looked under the lower quillion it is sharper there than the rest of the blade. Who's smiling then?

[Dom]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.......yes DOM it is yours. Hope using the pic was OK, but I guess a little late now ...snip...

don't be worry my Friend
at least I was flattered, that my "nimcha" has been choosing as example
otherwise, everything is under control ... thanks, hope so the same for you

à +

Dom

[archer]

I've not worked with a Damascus blade before and assume that unlike a wootz blade there shouldn't be a high risk of losing the pattern. My question is knowing now that the blade was originally sharp should I restore the edge? Doing this now before etching would mean that a third etch wouldn't be required. polishing wootz blades usually restores their edge in the process.
there is a chance the over polished areas were intentionally done to force the Kirk ladder like pattern. What is your advice at this point? I think the blades original features may well be restored. If so should the next hunt be for an appropriate hilt?

[RSWORD]

I'm leaning towards this blade being an antique blade. I don't think the new production blades with the bold birdseye patterning are tempered and have no flex to them at all. You do find bold, active pattern welds in antique Indian swords. I attach 2 pictures of an 18th century Indian saber from my collection. It has one of the boldest patterns I have ever seen. Fact is, you see a huge wide variety of patterns from India but they certainly were capable of this back in the day. Another possibility is Germany. You find many bold pattern welds produced from there. If you have a copy of Sasche book "On Damascus Swords" you can see a wide variety of German pattern welding. This could be another possibility. But if the blade has good flex, is tempered and can take an edge, then I think you have a very nice piece of pattern welded steel. Congratulations!

[Atlantia]

Hi Rick,

That's a beauty for sure.
That's the kind of polish and level of etch that I'd want to see on an antique example. Not the very deep etch that is usually seen on modern pieces and seems to have been the original level of etch on Steve's.
Also, Steve's doesn't look to have ever had the final edge grind done. An unfinished edge that is left that blunt would be unusual on a genuine blade but is the norm on modern Indian pieces.
However, just to throw the cat amonst the pidgeons... I have seen modern examples that are tempered, sharp and well finished.
It's somewhat worrying that there is any ambiguity over the attribution of Steve's sword. We're all leaning one way or the other, but the 'forum' is pretty split on it.

ATB
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by archer

I edited my last post yes that is the edge. The file feels like the edge is harder than the back, later I'll try a real jewelers file. Stu, I bought it thinking the pattern was an etch job and thinking the hilt was a probable replacement.

When I started looking closer I noticed the edges bluntness and hearing so much about Arabian dance swords. I had to ask I'll ask again and post a few shots after a bit of etching. Did some Pasha want to make sure His dancing
girls didn't get too wild?

The results of the etch after degreasing only for a prep!!! Just looked under the lower quillion it is sharper there than the rest of the blade. Who's smiling then?

Steve,

The fact that there is a flex in the blade and the edge feels harder than the spine is certainly a good turn of events.
If it was mine and I was keeping it I'd sharpen it.
I'd want to see the pattern disappearing into just layers near the edge and I'd try to not 'explore' to deeply into the birdseye patterned areas when finishing the edgefor fear of 'rubbing them through' and finding layered steel underneath.
So, I'd confine the regrinding to about 1cm from the cutting edge and then repolish the whole blade to a uniform smothness and then try a gentle scratch with a few different etchants and see which is giving a nice contrast without biting to deeply.

ATB
Gene