the river Lek Landsknechtdagger

[cornelistromp]

Yesterday I received from an urban archaeologist, a beautiful and extremely rare landsknechtdagger.
This dagger was found in the Netherlands in the River Lek, a remarkable detail is that there were 2 pieces of iron stuck to the blade of the dagger. See pictures before the conservation.
In one of these iron nuggets was a silver coin of "Philips de Schone" found.
(Philip I [1] (22 July 1478-25 September 1506), known as Philip the Handsome or the Fair, was the first member of the house of Habsburg to be King of Castile . The son of Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor, Philip inherited the Greater part of the Duchy of Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands.)

Because of this coin this dagger can be dated: after 1482 and probably before 1506.

Another remarkable detail is that a landsknechtdagger with an almost similar grip with another blade, surely from the same workshop, is on loan from the Rijksmuseum Amsterdam to the Netherlands Army Museum.
This dagger is published in Arms and Armour of knights and landsknechts Jan Piet Puype & Harm Stevens, no62, page 208/209. (a must have masterpiece for every scholar interested in Arms and Armour).

enjoy the pictures

best,

[cornelistromp]

before conservation.

[cornelistromp]

the dagger after conservation, the Philip the Handsome coin and the Rijksmuseum dagger, No62 in A&A of knight and Landsknechts.

[Matchlock]

Perfect piece and documentation, Jasper, thank you!

Best,
Michael

[M ELEY]

Beautiful and extremely rare pice, Jasper. Congrats! I especially like where it was found. Time to go drain off a river or two looking for goodies!

Mark

[cornelistromp]

a brass tang washer with an interesting form.

[Matchlock]

The asymmetric shape of the washer clearly reflects the Late Gothic taste, as a forerunner of the upcoming Early Renaissance style.

m

[Dmitry]

Here's a photo I took of another one. It's in the Philadelphia Museum of Art.
Much simpler than the ones above, but in similar fashion, with a cut-back inner part of the guard.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

The asymmetric shape of the washer clearly reflects the Late Gothic taste, as a forerunner of the upcoming Early Renaissance style.

m

Nice dagger.
The washer appears to be in the shape of a shield.

[Matchlock]

Well observed, Gene,

And the symmetric form of the washer as well as the twisted grip both denote that the Philadelphia piece posted by Dmitry dates from the 1520's-30's, the heyday of the Landsknechts.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

which is also very remarkable with this type of dagger is the following I noticed;

I have handled 3 genuine landsknechtdaggers, all with a flared calyx type of grip, and all 3 have a sort of bell inside the handle.

with the first dagger, I thought it was a loose piece of iron,locked in the grip. With the second dagger, I found it very coincidental, now with the third, I think this is done intentionally, comparable with the Dutch knives with wooden liongrips with a wooden rattle ball inside.

I hope I once get the opportunity to inspect the dagger no62 in the Dutch Army museum, so I could check whether this dagger has something similar locked in the grip.


Should there also be a link to the katzbalgers with a brass-bell terminals at the end of the parrier guards ?

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Well observed, Gene,

And the symmetric form of the washer as well as the twisted grip both denote that the Philadelphia piece posted by Dmitry dates from the 1520's-30's, the heyday of the Landsknechts.

Best,
Michael

Michael, I didn't want to bring this up, since the topic is not focused on it, but now that you said it, it confirms what I thought the moment I saw the piece - the Philly Museum tag for this dagger is way off the mark.

[Matchlock]

Thanks a lot, Dmitry,


For posting the images together with your remarks, which in my eyes are absolutely correct!

I thought I saved anything published by the Philly to my hard disc but this item was missing so far.

A dating of 'ca. 1400' is way off indeed.
For comparison, attached please find images of a fine 1520's' horseman's axe, the haft twisted in the same early-Italian Renaissance fashion, and a contemporary North Italian arquebus barrel.


Thanks again, and best,
Michael

[eftihis]

what a fantastic find!

[Swordfish]

I don`t believe that the dagger in the Philadelphia Museum dates as late as 1520-1530. It could well belong to the 15th century. That the twisted grip was in use much earlier, can be seen on the attached detail photo of a painting in an Austrian collection, dated 1425, with a rondel dagger with a spirally twisted grip.

Best

[Swordfish]

Another painting, dated1469, with a dagger with twisted grip.

[Matchlock]

What remains still as a solid basis of dating the Philly dagger is the symmetric Renaissance-style washer.

m

[Swordfish]

This is not a Renaissance style! Gothic stylistic elements are symmetric in at least one axis or two. Compare a gothic trefoil or quatrefoil. The lower front blank of gothic chests, especially of South German origin, is cut out in a similar shape as the sides of this washer.

See attached photo of a chest dated by dendrochronology c.1375

Additional a late gothic chest lock, with an identical detail, but reversed.

Therefore this washer is clearly of Gothic style !

Best

[cornelistromp]

I believe the majority of all the I type disk hilted daggers can be dated between 1350-1450.

cf Seitz blankwaffen p 201 Dagger 3. 1350-1400

cf Jan Piet Puype Harm Stevens A&A of knights and landknechts p172/173 no45, the disk of this dagger has a 90 degree bent guard plate with lobed borders, facts such as the Lek dagger. see pictures attached 1400-1450

cf Scheider&StuberGrifwaffen 1 ill.no 415-432

cf Wegeli Inventar der waffensammlung.. Museum in Bern p286 dagger 1091.

cf Robert Wilkinson Antique weapons and armour p 140 rondel dagger 2 1440-1450, this one has a similar washer as the phil dagger placed at the grip,can this shape be a crossflower? see pictures

best,

[Dmitry]

Excellent. So was wrong to attribute the Philadelphia dagger to the late 1400s-early 1500s?

[Matchlock]

It's hard to tell, the arguments vary and edged weapons are not my main expertise.

If this discussion was about a contemporary fireram, I would argue that all sources of period artwork generally tended to illustrate details of both costume and accouterments as 'characteristic' as possible, in order to ensure an optimum grade of recognition on the part of the viewer. 600-500 years ago, illuminators normally did not care for single details.
Thus, arquebuses were often depicted being fired without anyone visible to ignite them. Composite horn bows of 15th c. crossbows were illustrated in green colors - not one single existing crossbow with a green bow is known.
Animals like lions or elephants were depicted like dogs or pigs - simply because nobody cared.
It is a generally acknowleged fact in art history that detailed illustrations as well as perspective were first introduced by Early Renaissance artists like da Vinci and Dürer, both active about 1500.

Concerning the dagger grip in question, illustrated to be spirally wound in a mid-15th c. painting, I would explain this fact by pointing out the period tendency to depict all items in an 'idealized super-Gothic' decorative style - those artists cared by no means to copy an actually existing dagger. The cultural and decorative ideal was all that counted. That's why most Landsknechts in paintings of the Battle of Pavia are shown to be equipped with highly elaborate arquebuses, their stocks painted green or red, the basic Late-Gothic colors, and their Katzbalger sheaths highly decorated with colored lozenge patterns ...

In my experience, weapons - and especially firearms - actually always were the very latest objects to get decorated with characteristic stylistic features of the respective period. Thus, you will find Late-Gothic stylistic elements on firearms up to ca. 1600 - the Late-Renaisance period when they had become extinct on most other artworks, and even weapons, long ago.

m

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Excellent. So was wrong to attribute the Philadelphia dagger to the late 1400s-early 1500s?

The dagger from Philadelphia is correctly dated around 1400, herewith also a gothic dagger Hermann Historica auction 64 lot 2209, around 1400 with an interesting symmetrical pommel cap of a similar shape as the washer of the Phily dagger.

Best,

[Swordfish]

The dating of the HH dagger may be right in this case, but generally datings of auction houses must be treated with caution. There are always many wrong datings.

Best

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Swordfish

The dating of the HH dagger my be right in this case, but generally datings of auction houses must be treated with caution. There are always many wrong datings.

Best

unfortunately not only the dating must be treated with caution.

best,

[cornelistromp]

Wallace collection A726 dagger

[cornelistromp]

daggers similar in style as the lek dagger of post 1.

[cornelistromp]

rondel daggers in castelnaud.

[cornelistromp]

a third dagger of similar type as the Lek dagger in the Rijksmuseum Amsterdam.

Pictures © Carl Koppeschaar

[cornelistromp]

the precursor of the metal version, last quarter of 15thC