Indian sword blades

Jens Nordlunde · 27th August 2005, 04:57 PM

Hi Jim,

As I don’t know much about the ricasso, and especially not why it was used, I would prefer to wait discussing it till I know more. There are several possibilities, some more likely than others, but it will have to wait.

Jens

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2005, 12:09 AM

Hi Jens,
I must also concede to having little 'working' knowledge of the ricasso, and rely more on the observations of those who study the martial aspects of these weapons for that perspective. The material I have discovered and referenced from various sources concerning published reference to both the ricasso and practice of placement of finger around the quillon is simply noted to present established data on the topic. It seems very clear that no conclusions can possibly be drawn on most of this data and those who review it can use it to establish thier own observations. I always hope that someone reading this material might have material that would either support or rebut that which I have cited.

In further thinking on the tulwar it seems important to note characteristics of certain types. The quillons on the tulwar actually seem vestigial and poorly suited for guarding, which agrees with the idea that sword to sword combat with these seemed unlikely. This brings about the forms which have the knucklebow added, a feature which would suggest such sword to sword combat. Were these types mounted with ricassoed blades as well?

I keep coming back to the very presence of the ricasso, if not for the safety of a forefinger, then why was it there? Its presence is pronounced on the Afghan paluoar, which actually does have the drooping quillons that would protect the finger.

Although it seems we have deviated from the original course of this thread somewhat, we actually are still considering the hilt sizes as measured, and the feasibility of looping forefinger outside the area of the crossguard/quillons accounting for the smaller size on some hilts. The mysterious Indian ricasso and its purpose seem very pertinant here and hopefully we can at least review the collective data on it....long way to go yet

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 24th May 2006, 04:55 PM

In Babur-Nama I found this.
(Authors note on the kuroh) [must be the translators notes].
These kurohs were established in relation to the mil, in the way mentioned in the Mubin:
(Turki) Four thousand paces (qadam) are one mil;
know that Hind People call this a kuroh;
the pace (qadam) they say is a qari and a half (36in.);
know that each qari (24in.) is six hands-breadths (tutam)
that each tutam is four fingers (ailik),
each ailik 6 barley-corns.
The measuring-cord (tanab) was fixed at 40 qari, each being the one-and-a-half qari mentioned above, that is to say, each is 9 hand-breadths. (The tanab was thus 120ft. long).

Now, if you take ‘The Wonder that was India’, and have a look at page 503, you will see, like Jim correctly wrote earlier, that 8 yava (barley-corns) = 1 angula (fingers breadth, ¾ in.).

Now the interesting thing comes.
In B-N they say that a qari is 24 in. or six hand-breadths = one hand breadth = 4 in. As a hand-breadth is defined as being 4 fingers, 1 finger would be 1 inch.
In ‘The Wonder that was India’ the author says 1 angula is ¾ in, this gives 3 in. to four fingers, and that is what my tulwar hilts measure – 3 in.

Mil/kuroh = 4000 paces = 144.000 inches = 12.000 feet = 4000 yards
Qari = six hand-breaths (1 hand = 1 tutam) = 24 inches
Tutam = 4 fingers (ailik) = 4 inches
1 ailik = 6 barley-corns = 1 inch
1 barley-corn = 0.167 inches

In the B-N 6 barley-corns are = 1 ailik/angula (fingers breadth) = 1”.

In The wonder.. 8 yava (barley-corns) are = 1 ailik/angula (fingers breadth) = ¾”.

It is strange that they used a different number of barley-corns, and it is even more strange that 6 corns equals 1”, and 8 corns equal ¾”.

We know that a good blade should be so an so many ailiks/angulas – this was important, and it is also known that the Hindus used the blade length when they wanted a horoscope made. We know that Babur had towers build along the roads at certain intervals, like our milestones in the old days. This is odd, as the length of the blades, the width of the hilts, building of houses, distances on the road – it should all be measures by the same measure. Can anyone explain this?

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27th August 2005, 04:57 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, As I don’t know much about the ricasso, and especially not why it was used, I would prefer to wait discussing it till I know more. There are several possibilities, some more likely than others, but it will have to wait. Jens

28th August 2005, 12:09 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,867	Hi Jens, I must also concede to having little 'working' knowledge of the ricasso, and rely more on the observations of those who study the martial aspects of these weapons for that perspective. The material I have discovered and referenced from various sources concerning published reference to both the ricasso and practice of placement of finger around the quillon is simply noted to present established data on the topic. It seems very clear that no conclusions can possibly be drawn on most of this data and those who review it can use it to establish thier own observations. I always hope that someone reading this material might have material that would either support or rebut that which I have cited. In further thinking on the tulwar it seems important to note characteristics of certain types. The quillons on the tulwar actually seem vestigial and poorly suited for guarding, which agrees with the idea that sword to sword combat with these seemed unlikely. This brings about the forms which have the knucklebow added, a feature which would suggest such sword to sword combat. Were these types mounted with ricassoed blades as well? I keep coming back to the very presence of the ricasso, if not for the safety of a forefinger, then why was it there? Its presence is pronounced on the Afghan paluoar, which actually does have the drooping quillons that would protect the finger. Although it seems we have deviated from the original course of this thread somewhat, we actually are still considering the hilt sizes as measured, and the feasibility of looping forefinger outside the area of the crossguard/quillons accounting for the smaller size on some hilts. The mysterious Indian ricasso and its purpose seem very pertinant here and hopefully we can at least review the collective data on it....long way to go yet All the best, Jim

24th May 2006, 04:55 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In Babur-Nama I found this. (Authors note on the kuroh) [must be the translators notes]. These kurohs were established in relation to the mil, in the way mentioned in the Mubin: (Turki) Four thousand paces (qadam) are one mil; know that Hind People call this a kuroh; the pace (qadam) they say is a qari and a half (36in.); know that each qari (24in.) is six hands-breadths (tutam) that each tutam is four fingers (ailik), each ailik 6 barley-corns. The measuring-cord (tanab) was fixed at 40 qari, each being the one-and-a-half qari mentioned above, that is to say, each is 9 hand-breadths. (The tanab was thus 120ft. long). Now, if you take ‘The Wonder that was India’, and have a look at page 503, you will see, like Jim correctly wrote earlier, that 8 yava (barley-corns) = 1 angula (fingers breadth, ¾ in.). Now the interesting thing comes. In B-N they say that a qari is 24 in. or six hand-breadths = one hand breadth = 4 in. As a hand-breadth is defined as being 4 fingers, 1 finger would be 1 inch. In ‘The Wonder that was India’ the author says 1 angula is ¾ in, this gives 3 in. to four fingers, and that is what my tulwar hilts measure – 3 in. Mil/kuroh = 4000 paces = 144.000 inches = 12.000 feet = 4000 yards Qari = six hand-breaths (1 hand = 1 tutam) = 24 inches Tutam = 4 fingers (ailik) = 4 inches 1 ailik = 6 barley-corns = 1 inch 1 barley-corn = 0.167 inches In the B-N 6 barley-corns are = 1 ailik/angula (fingers breadth) = 1”. In The wonder.. 8 yava (barley-corns) are = 1 ailik/angula (fingers breadth) = ¾”. It is strange that they used a different number of barley-corns, and it is even more strange that 6 corns equals 1”, and 8 corns equal ¾”. We know that a good blade should be so an so many ailiks/angulas – this was important, and it is also known that the Hindus used the blade length when they wanted a horoscope made. We know that Babur had towers build along the roads at certain intervals, like our milestones in the old days. This is odd, as the length of the blades, the width of the hilts, building of houses, distances on the road – it should all be measures by the same measure. Can anyone explain this?