Aura Photographic on Kris

[purwacarita]

I tried to take an aura photograph of one of my favorite kris at local shop who owns a Coggins system. Though I had reasonable doubts about the system, I found it interesting that my kris could make color changing in the aura picture displayed on the computer screen when I put it very near above the electrodes used for placing people palms. I sensed too the electrodes radiated vibrations, hence I thought of the color changing was the electrodes vibration reflected by the kris and not the kris aura itself.

Is there anyone experience with this phenomenon or using Kirlian system? If you are in Indonesia, please inform your address so I could take aura picture of my kris. Thanx.

I.B. Sukakarya

[Spunjer]

hi there and welcome,

could you post some picture please?

[jmings]

Originally Posted by purwacarita

<snip>
Is there anyone experience with this phenomenon or using Kirlian system? <snip>

I'm sorry, but you were taken in by a meaningless phenomina. See http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Ki...otography.html for an explanation.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes gobble'd'gook like all beliefs, I bet you could get similar results from a potato. Tim

[Battara]

It's funny you say that, because a potato does give off electromagnetic radiation, like all living things and other things with metalic properties.

[Tim Simmons]

Spooky

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Yes gobble'd'gook like all beliefs, I bet you could get similar results from a potato. Tim

I am not sure what you mean by "like all beliefs," but its not gobble'd'gook, since the observed phenomenon is real. It was just mis-interpreted (and I suppose still is in some quarters). From the linked article noted above:

Once highly regarded by the paranormalists, Kirlian photography has now been shown to only indicate variances in pressure, humidity, grounding, and conductivity. Corona discharges are well understood and explained in elementary physics.

Subjecting a piece of metal to Kirlian photography would give pretty dramatic results, I should think. More so if the blade had any inherent magnetic charge.

You might try a control test using a kitchen knife, or a hunting knife or a big nail or similar object (tell the Kirlian photographer that the hunting knife was your grandfather's prized possession, or was used to kill someone, and you think part of his soul inhabits it ... ). It would be interesting to see the results.

"The Great" Randi (whose site hosts that link) is a notorious hard-core skeptic, of whom I am actually a bit skeptical myself. Sometimes he does disprove things, but just as often he takes the position that if you can't prove something to be due to the paranormal, it isn't. He doesn't need a logical or scientific explanation -- he assumes there is a trick, and the absence of proof to the contrary is proof enough for him. Not exactly the scientific method at work there. I haven't seen him exlaim how Yuri Geller can move a compass needle on a brightly-lit plain wooden table outside, with his sleeves rolled up. He did show how Geller could be bending spoons, though ...

[Tim Simmons]

These things are quite fun and most of the time harmless. As to beliefs, I find them fasinating , why I have an interest in anthropology. I do not want to upset anybody but beliefs usually always lead to trouble and hinder mankinds advance to a humanist future, which could be a belief in itself Tim

[nechesh]

Sure Tim, you might have a point there. Maybe we should all just suspend our belief in, say, gravity and try walking off a 10 story building.
At least it would allieviate the over-population crisis and that would certainly be a help to "mankind's advance to a humanist future".
I tend to agree that kirlian photography and Coggins' system have been misinterpreted phenomena. Still, they could be useful measuring systems. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio...." that can be accounted for by so-called "scientific" methods which always seem to find the method necessary to prove any given theorum given enough time and resources. Are sub-atomic materials particles or waves? All depends on how you measure them. Anyone who has been following modern physics with the least bit of interest has propbably noticed that the line between science and mysticism is becoming thinner by the day. Try reading Fritjof Capra's "the Tao of physics". The "gooble'd'gook" of yesterday may well become the science of tomorrow. String theory anyone?

[Tim Simmons]

I look forward to a bright mystic future Tim

[Bill]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Maybe we should all just suspend our belief in, say, gravity and try walking off a 10 story building.

which gravity theory, the push or pull http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/wright1.htm

[nechesh]

Thanks Bill. As Mr. Spock would say..."Fascinating". However, a disregard for belief in EITHER theory of gravity would, i am afraid, yield the same result in the case of the 10 story walk off a building It's nice to see conflicting theories of anything being able to agree on such a vital point.

[purwacarita]

Hi people, thanx for your comments and link.

Originally Posted by Spunjer

hi there and welcome,

could you post some picture please?

Hi Spunjer, I don't have the picture yet. Coggins seemed to have a photo montage technique and I didn't like it. The camera was set fixed to view an empty chair, and the picture on screen displayed an aura circle of purple already though the electrodes were not neared nor touched. But when I brought the keris about half milimeter above the electrodes, half circle of aura picture started to turn from purple to green.

[purwacarita]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

These things are quite fun and most of the time harmless. As to beliefs, I find them fasinating , why I have an interest in anthropology. I do not want to upset anybody but beliefs usually always lead to trouble and hinder mankinds advance to a humanist future, which could be a belief in itself Tim

Hi Tim, there is Barong Dance in Batu Bulan area near Denpasar city in Bali which in the end of the dance, many dancers got trance and tried to stab their own chests using keris but the keris blade couldn't go in. Well, the show is performed about 9.00am local time in the morning, hence nothing spooky about it like the lullaby of scary vampires who can perform magical terrible things only after sunset. You don't have to believe the show is real, all you have to do is just visiting Bali to prove it with your bare eyes, and kill me afterward if it is proven a lie. Anyway your comments more appreciated rather tacit spiritual welcome comments of my own fello Indo/Malay people. ~IBS

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Mr Sukakarya,
Those events sound like a most fantastic spectecle, I would really like to see the scary vampires . Do the whole family attend these events? The vampire one must give everyone a real shiver. If only I had the money to travel . I understand magic even if I do not believe it like practitioners or supplicates. I have a small collection of objects mainly from Africa that are used for divination and other magical religious practises. I like these more than my weapons. Some more information about the vampire thing would be nice. Tim

[nechesh]

Hey Tim, i'm not sure if you are just being sarcastic or you maybe didn't really understand the remark about vampires, but just incase you were confused, there is no vampire Barong Dance.
Skepticism is a healthy thing as long as it doesn't get in the way of the open mind. In fact i practice it rather "religiously", if you will. However, i have also studied Magick and mysticism for more than 25yrs. and can tell you that i have personally experienced many things that can not be explained by present scientific method. I do, however, consider these experiences to be completely natural. Understanding magick goes far beyond owning a small collection of African divination and magickal items no matter how highly you prize the collection. Understanding comes through practice, not skeptical observance. If you wish to continue to make light of other peoples spiritual beliefs, that's fine. People often make fun of the things they don't understand. What ever makes you comfortable, dude.

[marto suwignyo]

Fred Eiseman is an American who lived in a village situation in Bali for many years. His experience and perspective of Balinese life is from the inside, looking out, not from the outside, looking in. Before coming to any conclusions in respect of the percieved efforts of participants in Barong dances attempts to stab themselves, I suggest that a reading of Fred Eiseman`s "Sekala and Niskala" might lift the fog just a little.

On the other hand:- in about 1970 in a village near Kuta I saw a non-Balinese person thrown from the top of a six foot wall, where he was sitting, by an invisible force because he had not heeded warnings to keep his head lower than the head of Rangda. Nobody was anywhere near this person, who was sitting on the top of a wall around the courtyard where the dance was being performed. He had been asked several times by local people to move and sit with everybody else. He would not. When Rangda entered the dance area he was projected with considerable force from the top of the wall.

[Tim Simmons]

I think you missunderstand me greatly, so keen am I to get the feel of other cultures beliefs I was happy to go with the barong vampire dance thing. I would only make light of the sort of thought that would transport old world superstion not related to any native cultures to the new world. Tim

[Mark]

I think it is time to shelve the "light-hearted" exchanges about spiritualism. I don't like where this is going, frankly.

[nechesh]

Thanks Mark. I both respect and encourage your insistence that our discussions stay both civil and on topic. I must point out, however, that it would be virtually impossible to continue to have ethnographic discussion of the keris without at least occasionally entering into conversation on magick and mysticism and how it pertains to this weapon and it's culture. It's not so much a matter of belief. This is the culture of the keris, regardless of personal belief systems. The keris simply cannot be understood in a vacuum outside of this culture. It is so much more than just a beautiful bit of metalurgy.

[John]

I think the atmosphere would be more pleasant and cordial if absent from name calling and fairly frequent swollen headed "barks"...

[rasdan]

[Mark]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Thanks Mark. I both respect and encourage your insistence that our discussions stay both civil and on topic. I must point out, however, that it would be virtually impossible to continue to have ethnographic discussion of the keris without at least occasionally entering into conversation on magick and mysticism and how it pertains to this weapon and it's culture. It's not so much a matter of belief. This is the culture of the keris, regardless of personal belief systems. The keris simply cannot be understood in a vacuum outside of this culture. It is so much more than just a beautiful bit of metalurgy.

My last word: it was not the subject of spirituality/magic/mysticism and how it pertains to the keris and it's culture that I consider to be inappropriate, but rather the editorial comments about the validity of such beliefs (and not to put too fine a point on it, but my perception is the one that matters here, if this thread is to stay open). 'Nuff said.

[nechesh]

Thanks for clarifying that Mark.

[purwacarita]

Even a coin possess yoni power, or yoni of keris will display different pattern?

[nechesh]

What makes this yoni power?

[Battara]

I don't know about the yoni power, but I will reiterate that nearly all objects that have metalic ions in their systems will give off some measure of electromagnetic energy. This is why, for example, some sharks have been known to attack boats - they have electromagnetic radiation sensors and mistake the metal of a boat for a really big fish and are not so much attacking it but exploring it to see what it is (sharks explore with their teeth like baby humans ). Thus a keris blade will also give off some form of magnetic and electromagnetic radiation. So will a person, leaf, penny, euro, etc. I would be interested in knowing what the comparisons look like between different keris blades with different pamor types.

[purwacarita]

Hi nechesh, it's nice to know that I'm not alone in this plane of magic. I think your question already well answered in other thread Keris and Hantus, it's a belief so far, none knows the origin of yoni. I reread my last post in that thread and the last paragraph could be read like offending you, which is not. Please don't mind my modest inside view.

Hi Battara, you really can read my mind cant you?! Thank you for spelling it out.

[nechesh]

Hi Purwacarita. I assure you, no offense was taken with your post on that other thread.
I'm still not quite sure i see why you consider this a feminine (yoni) power and not a masculine (linggam) one, unless you are referring to it's (perhaps) lesser known definition as "source". Linggam, on the other hand , literally means "mark" in Sanskrit, so it might be more appropriate in this case. What we see in this type of photography is a "mark" of the electromagnetic field, not the "source" itself. Ultimately "source" and 'mark" are all part of the same wholeness (Holiness) so it's all just semantics anyway.
To see if these photos are of any use to us in measuring aspects of the keris either physical or mystical i think it would be necessary to have complete access to a Coggins device (not just a walk-in at a psychic fair) to conduct a legitimate seires of tests. It would indeed be interesting to see if there were different responses to different pamor types, but first i think it would be necessary to conduct the same test photo on the same keris multiple times in a row to see if you get the same results. If each photo of the same keris is wildly different due to outside electromagnetic interference or whatever, then these experiment would be able to tell us very little about the nature of any particular keris. If you can repeat the experiment with the same results time and time again then it could be a useful tool for measuring SOMETHING about the nature of the keris. Then we get into the sticky part about how we interpret the data. What does a green aura MEAN as opposed to, say, a purple one. Do we base our interpretations on the pre-conceived notions of the fatally flawed New Age movement or do we seek our own scale. If one were to do this kind of study with a keris of very prominent provenence we might be able to start drawing conclusions from what we know as the factual history of the piece. Kudos to anyone who is willing to undertake this type of research on a serious scale. But from personal experience i would suggest that everyone's relationship with any particular keris is a personal one which can only be measured by you alone. I spent a whole lot of time in the 1980s investigating the powers of crystal energy. Now, let me just state that after all that i am a true believer in the power of certain crystals to transmit and transform energy (and therefore conciousness) in human beings. HOWEVER, there isn't a book on the subject that is worth more than fire fodder. Though our brains all have similar hard drives (similar, not the same ) we all use vastly different software. As such our response to various stimuli can be vastly different. Therefore, how each individual responds to any particular crystal (or keris) is bound to be different. So Coggins reveals a keris to have a blue-green aura. Now tell me what that means to YOU. Don't expect it to mean the same to ME. The best means for measuring energy in a keris are the simplest ones. Find a quiet spot. Breathe. Find your center. Meditate with the keris and open yourself up to feel it's energy. This is why you can bring a keris to two or three different dukkuns and get completely different answers about the nature of the blade (if they are the real deal and not just chalatans after your money. Keep an open mind, remain skeptical. It's a tough balance). They can only tell you what they feel through the filter of their own experience. What it all boils down to is DIY, do it yourself. If you really feel you are not able (everyone is though) then you might ask yourself why you what (or need) to know in the first place.

[purwacarita]

Hi nechesh. I recall yoni as different energy from the bearer who naturally possess lingga one, where the combination believed to alive both the keris and the bearer. I dont know if it has the same meaning in other area/culture. Sounds like im yang energy of the Chinese. /cough.

People at Coggins said that it only work with living things. Well, ...it did not cost a lot for small spontaneous experiment and so they did as I said after I went home back to get the keris, and now I become curious. There were some color explanation from Coggins but it explains the meaning of aura discharged only by human. It seems none keris people in Indonesia has the Kirlian nor none Kirlian people abroad has keris.