Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

[fspic]

Originally Posted by David

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

This blade may have been a lost cause before any work was done on it. The only thing that can be done is a chemical cleaning, filing smooth and then finding a way to fill in the pits with metal. I found a shop about five years ago which is willing to try spray welding of on this type of problem. This would be tried in very local areas first. A form of gas welding might work using certain alloys. However it would merely permit re-shaping the blade which would be a reconstruction more than a restoration. It would likely show the alloyed and filed areas as a separate color.

Coin silver has a relatively low melting point. Zinc is even lower. If you are really desperate and have the resources it might be possible to use these metals in sequence. Even an electroplate could be used to fill the final top layer of a filled blade. After finishing the blade would merely look "old and not maintained" instead of like a total disaster. The object is to merely restore the shape and appearance to make a more presentable wall display.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fspic

This blade may have been a lost cause before any work was done on it. The only thing that can be done is a chemical cleaning, filing smooth and then finding a way to fill in the pits with metal. I found a shop about five years ago which is willing to try spray welding of on this type of problem. This would be tried in very local areas first. A form of gas welding might work using certain alloys. However it would merely permit re-shaping the blade which would be a reconstruction more than a restoration. It would likely show the alloyed and filed areas as a separate color.

Coin silver has a relatively low melting point. Zinc is even lower. If you are really desperate and have the resources it might be possible to use these metals in sequence. Even an electroplate could be used to fill the final top layer of a filled blade. After finishing the blade would merely look "old and not maintained" instead of like a total disaster. The object is to merely restore the shape and appearance to make a more presentable wall display.

Salaams fspic, Ypoznan, Evgeny_K et al~ The electroplating is maybe not a bad idea. What caused the damage? The Dremel or the desalting ?... It looks like it was sandblasted?? I must look up dremel ah ! Its the dreaded power tool in restoration... I think that may have done the damage. By the way has anyone ever done electrolysis on severely rusted blades? www.instructables.com has a couple of tips for this technique though I have to say with a blade as badly corroded as this was...it was never going to be easy. I would go for a few days in something mild like coke or lemon salt clean it off with soapy water and after drying get it covered in restoration wax.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams fspic Ypoznan et al~ The electroplating is maybe not a bad idea. What caused the damage? The Dremel or the desalting ?... It looks like it was sandblasted?? I must look up dremel ah ! Its the dreaded power tool in restoration... I think that may have done the damage. By the way has anyone ever done electrolysis on severely rusted blades? www.instructable.com has a couple of tips for this technique though I have to say with a blade as badly corroded as this was...it was never going to be easy. I would go for a few days in something mild like coke or lemon salt clean it off with soapy water and after drying get it covered in restoration wax.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Hello Ibrahiim,
Blade was already damaged because saber was dug up.
Desaltination is a necessary procedure to prevent further corrosion of the metal.
I've just removed with dremel brush mellowed rust from the surface of the blade.
Deep caverns already were on the blade when I get it into my hands.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Hello Ibrahiim,
Blade was already damaged because saber was dug up.
Desaltination is a necessary procedure to prevent further corrosion of the metal.
I've just removed with dremel brush mellowed rust from the surface of the blade.
Deep caverns already were on the blade when I get it into my hands.

Salaams Evgeny_K~ Ok I sympathise because excavated metalwork is always a headache to restore. I can see by the first photos that this was never going to be easy though I hope you get a good result with the next phase...Just getting to the point of stabilising the rust will be a considerable step. Best of luck ya.
Regarding your next sword in similar condition ... This looks like another mission impossible ! What is tannin solution please ? I have not heard of it... I will search the web... is this acidic? How long to soak?.. can we see an after photograph please? Good luck !! ...ah wait I have searched the best library.. our own Forum search and now I understand tannin solution... very interesting indeed... Forum search Tannin Solution !!!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

[fspic]

Originally Posted by David

"... Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that I have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

Well, how restoring doing one side of the blade so it has a representative appearance and leaving the other side as is? At least it cuts work in half. I wouldn't do that with a genuinely historical blade which has a connection with an older historical incident such as an assassination and a resulting uprising.

[David]

Originally Posted by fspic

Well, how restoring doing one side of the blade so it has a representative appearance and leaving the other side as is? At least it cuts work in half. I wouldn't do that with a genuinely historical blade which has a connection with an older historical incident such as an assassination and a resulting uprising.

Well this is not something i would personally consider. If a blade warrants restoration and can actually be restored (i am not sure there was ever really a shot with this one) then i will either attempt it or not. I see no purpose in restoring half a blade. If restoration cannot be done without damaging the blade then it is not restoration is it, and i see no purpose in damaging a blade in order to make it shinier or prettier for display purposes. As for historical value the trouble is that unless you were there, have undeniable provenance or have a time machine it's impossible to tell exactly what the historical importance is of any blade. Maybe it killed many of the original owners enemies. Maybe it was never even drawn from it's sheath for that purpose. And for me even the personal history of a lowly warrior of seemingly little consequence is "important" in my eye. It doesn't matter if it's actions started revolutions or merely fought in insignificant battles that led to nothing. History is history is history and everyone's part in it collectively is what has led to our present.
We all collect for different reasons and all of them are valid. Some swords can be eye candy for proud display, but it it not what directs me to collect them.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

This is uncalled for .

Not any longer.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by David

I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

Sorry I suspect this LIKE symbol may get annoying, but, I couldn't have stated my sentiments better than David did. We will see how this turns out. Unfortunately I suspect the value (historically and monetarily) of this beautiful saber has plummeted.

Jeff

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Unfortunately I suspect the value (historically and monetarily) of this beautiful saber has plummeted.

Jeff

Jeff and dear all,
I've just remove mellowed rust after 3-4 weeks of soaking in the distilled water. Blade is not cleaned out to shiny naked metal (as it might seem from the photographs). I've leave some rust in the deep caverns. Next step is process the blade in the tannin solution.
Regards,
Evgeny

P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Jeff and dear all,
I've just remove mellowed rust after 3-4 weeks of soaking in the distilled water. Blade is not cleaned out to shiny naked metal (as it might seem from the photographs). I've leave some rust in the deep caverns. Next step is process the blade in the tannin solution.
Regards,
Evgeny

P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it.

Hi Evgeny,

My personal opinion is "Less is More". This is a 400-500 year old weapon it should not look new. I know the temptation of using modern power tools, sandblasters, and chemicals, I have tried all of them on old rusty tools as experiments, the results have been less than optimal. You clearly have some knowledge of restoration, but I would implore you not to experiment with these sabers, they are too valuable (even in artifact condition).

All the Best
Jeff

[David]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Evgeny,

My personal opinion is "Less is More". This is a 400-500 year old weapon it should not look new. I know the temptation of using modern power tools, sandblasters, and chemicals, I have tried all of them on old rusty tools as experiments, the results have been less than optimal. You clearly have some knowledge of restoration, but I would implore you not to experiment with these sabers, they are too valuable (even in artifact condition).

All the Best
Jeff

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
What he said...

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

...
P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it.

scabbard mounts in progress:

before (too much rusted)

[Evgeny_K]

after (reactivation of the ferric oxide in the carbon environment):