Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

[ZEKIR]

Gentlemen,
Trying to establish whether the sabre is Polish or Ukrainian is a bit tough.

The type of blade and the handle is of Polish type but it could have been used by anyone within the Sarmathian culture. (Sarmathian Culture - I mean the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth of XVI-XIXc that Ukraine was a part of).

Big part of Cossacs were part of the State Register - which means they received money from The State to purchase a saddle, "uniform", guns, powder, tobacco, to support a horse etc.
Other Cossacs would be hired by big landlords and equipped in a uniform fashion, where the colors of their garments would be identical and the weapons would follow an identical design (made usually by one manufacture belonging to the landlord).

There were other cossacs as well who fought for expanding of the State Register. They were not a part of any state or private structure and wore any weapon that was in use in the region back then, which could have been Polish, Persian, Turkich, Indian, Georgian, German - whatever.
Plus! If not fo Cossacs, Austria would be a muslim country (Polish, Lithuanian forces saved Vienna in 1681) because nobody in the world did a better job fighting Turks. The natural consequence of the military escapades against Turks was an abundance of oriental artifacts (weapons included) all over Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania.

Generating a new brand of Ukrainian Sword is not so easy because the Sarmathian culture - uniting at that time Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians did not really vary from one region to another.
You could see that Hungarians were a bit different in their "practice" of Sarmathism. Even that is not apparent at the first glance.

It is a bit like trying to define an Austrian sub-type of blue jeans. Whatever we say Blue Jeans are American pants no matter who wears them.

Regards,
Zekir

P.S.
The sword is fantastic. It was an expensive artifact judging from the form of the blade. The weapons distributed by landlords to their cossacs are very practical but simple. This particular weapon belonged to a nobleman (Pole, Lithuanian, Hungarian or Ukrainian).

[Evgeny_K]

Thank you, Zekir!

Here are some pics of the blade after desalting and Dremel steel brush cleaning

[David]

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

[fspic]

Originally Posted by David

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

This blade may have been a lost cause before any work was done on it. The only thing that can be done is a chemical cleaning, filing smooth and then finding a way to fill in the pits with metal. I found a shop about five years ago which is willing to try spray welding of on this type of problem. This would be tried in very local areas first. A form of gas welding might work using certain alloys. However it would merely permit re-shaping the blade which would be a reconstruction more than a restoration. It would likely show the alloyed and filed areas as a separate color.

Coin silver has a relatively low melting point. Zinc is even lower. If you are really desperate and have the resources it might be possible to use these metals in sequence. Even an electroplate could be used to fill the final top layer of a filled blade. After finishing the blade would merely look "old and not maintained" instead of like a total disaster. The object is to merely restore the shape and appearance to make a more presentable wall display.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fspic

This blade may have been a lost cause before any work was done on it. The only thing that can be done is a chemical cleaning, filing smooth and then finding a way to fill in the pits with metal. I found a shop about five years ago which is willing to try spray welding of on this type of problem. This would be tried in very local areas first. A form of gas welding might work using certain alloys. However it would merely permit re-shaping the blade which would be a reconstruction more than a restoration. It would likely show the alloyed and filed areas as a separate color.

Coin silver has a relatively low melting point. Zinc is even lower. If you are really desperate and have the resources it might be possible to use these metals in sequence. Even an electroplate could be used to fill the final top layer of a filled blade. After finishing the blade would merely look "old and not maintained" instead of like a total disaster. The object is to merely restore the shape and appearance to make a more presentable wall display.

Salaams fspic, Ypoznan, Evgeny_K et al~ The electroplating is maybe not a bad idea. What caused the damage? The Dremel or the desalting ?... It looks like it was sandblasted?? I must look up dremel ah ! Its the dreaded power tool in restoration... I think that may have done the damage. By the way has anyone ever done electrolysis on severely rusted blades? www.instructables.com has a couple of tips for this technique though I have to say with a blade as badly corroded as this was...it was never going to be easy. I would go for a few days in something mild like coke or lemon salt clean it off with soapy water and after drying get it covered in restoration wax.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams fspic Ypoznan et al~ The electroplating is maybe not a bad idea. What caused the damage? The Dremel or the desalting ?... It looks like it was sandblasted?? I must look up dremel ah ! Its the dreaded power tool in restoration... I think that may have done the damage. By the way has anyone ever done electrolysis on severely rusted blades? www.instructable.com has a couple of tips for this technique though I have to say with a blade as badly corroded as this was...it was never going to be easy. I would go for a few days in something mild like coke or lemon salt clean it off with soapy water and after drying get it covered in restoration wax.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Hello Ibrahiim,
Blade was already damaged because saber was dug up.
Desaltination is a necessary procedure to prevent further corrosion of the metal.
I've just removed with dremel brush mellowed rust from the surface of the blade.
Deep caverns already were on the blade when I get it into my hands.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Hello Ibrahiim,
Blade was already damaged because saber was dug up.
Desaltination is a necessary procedure to prevent further corrosion of the metal.
I've just removed with dremel brush mellowed rust from the surface of the blade.
Deep caverns already were on the blade when I get it into my hands.

Salaams Evgeny_K~ Ok I sympathise because excavated metalwork is always a headache to restore. I can see by the first photos that this was never going to be easy though I hope you get a good result with the next phase...Just getting to the point of stabilising the rust will be a considerable step. Best of luck ya.
Regarding your next sword in similar condition ... This looks like another mission impossible ! What is tannin solution please ? I have not heard of it... I will search the web... is this acidic? How long to soak?.. can we see an after photograph please? Good luck !! ...ah wait I have searched the best library.. our own Forum search and now I understand tannin solution... very interesting indeed... Forum search Tannin Solution !!!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

[fspic]

Originally Posted by David

"... Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that I have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

Well, how restoring doing one side of the blade so it has a representative appearance and leaving the other side as is? At least it cuts work in half. I wouldn't do that with a genuinely historical blade which has a connection with an older historical incident such as an assassination and a resulting uprising.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by David

I am not sure that there is ever a time when it is a good idea to go at an old blade with a steel brush on a dremel. I am not opposed to restoration of old blades, but in my view the least invasive approach is generally that best one. My own viewpoint is a bit different from fspic as i believe that for me the object is not to merely create a more attractive wall hanging. Some of these old blades we collect are irreplaceable pieces of history. In my own collecting experience i therefore believe that i have a certain obligation to preserve this history for study and a better understanding of our past. I am not opposed to cleaning up old blades and fittings to give them the appearance that they once had at the height of their use, but i think that with a blade such as this where the corrosion has reached a certain level, the best thing we can do is to stabilize the blade so that no further damage takes place.

Sorry I suspect this LIKE symbol may get annoying, but, I couldn't have stated my sentiments better than David did. We will see how this turns out. Unfortunately I suspect the value (historically and monetarily) of this beautiful saber has plummeted.

Jeff

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by David

I fear that your restoration approach with this blade may have been far too aggressive...

David, it's not "too agressive" )
Blade is heavily pitted. I've just deasalt it in the distillated water and clean it gently enough. Now I'm going to process it in the tannin solution (corrosion inhibitor).