Dutch model cannons 1761

[cannonmn]

Cornelis, thanks again. I have not seen any Dutch cannons as large as the 1654 pair which I could verify were models. The models I see are much smaller than these, with the "1761" Seest pair being some of the largest ones I thought were actually models. However since we do not have documentation on what was done for what purpose, many questions will remain open.

The small piece on the little wooden ship carriage you showed in response no. 13: I have a pair that closely resemble it, even down to the banner with the year date on it, but of course the coat of arms differs. I think the "displayed eagle" coat of arms on mine is too generic to trace it to any family. I tried however there are hundreds of them in the armorials, from many countries, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, etc.

However I'd be quite interested if some day the maker of these pieces could be ascertained. Mine are not marked with any maker but have some local commerce-type marks stamped into the underside. Since these are much larger than proofmarks for arms, I have decided they are probably local government inspection marks normally used for scale weights etc., and were used to indicate proof of these small cannons once proof-testing laws came into effect for even saluting cannons.

I am sure the carriages are later than the barrels. Sorry the photos are grainy, the camera seems to have been mis-adjusted.

These small cannons are about 28" long as I recall. Underneath they have small roman numerals II and IIII as I recall, so there must have been a set of at least four. I saw that Roth has written a page on the small or model or family cannons in his book on the Visser Collection.

[cornelistromp]

what a beautiful couple!


the canon of post 13 is made by Cornelis ouderogge in 1649 and is in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. There are so many similarities that it is certainly possible that the couple is made ​​by cornelis Ouderogge as well.


There is not much known about these small cannons, were they merely used as signal guns ? I do not know. More likely is that they were gifts given to a commander after some great victory or made as a prototype for a bigger cannon by the foundry in oder to get a large order.
I have a few small cannons in my collection, of course not so beautiful as the ones you have posted I will try to post some pictures later.

best,

[cannonmn]

Cornelis, thanks again. I was still curious so I went to the Rijks.M. site and locted their page on the cannon you so kindly posted, and pasted it below here for anyone's reference.

Then I did of course the natural thing and hurried off to measure mine to see if they matched that example in the Rijks.M.

My pair have barrels of total length 63 cm, same as the museum example. The bores on mine are 3.1 cm caliber/diameter, and that in the museum is 2.8 cm, so either mine enlarged from firing or Ouderogge simply bored them a bit larger, but the overall details match precisely so I can now be sure mine are also Ouderogge pieces, at least "by attribution."

I have only been trying to figure out for the past 29 years who cast my pair of guns, so thanks very much for solving that problem for me!
---------------------
Identificatie / Vervaardiging Fysieke kenmerken Opschriften / merken Verwerving Identificatie / VervaardigingIdentificatie / Vervaardiging Collectie
wapens / militaria
Objectnummer
NG-NM-9803-A
Titel(s)
Model van een bronzen kanonVervaardiger
bronsgieter: Cornelis Ouderogge
(.... - 1672)
plaats vervaardiging: Rotterdam
Datering
1649

Fysiek medium
Materiaal
bronsAfmetingen
geheel lengte: 63.5 cm, geheel breedte: 12.9 cm
totaal gewicht: 18 kg
monding-zundgat lengte: 53.5 cm
kaliber diameter: 2.8 cm
druifbol diameter: 3.4 cm
kulasband diameter: 9.9 cm
tap diameter: 3 cm
loop diameter: 5.4 cm, loop diameter: 8.7 cm Opschriften / merkenOpschriften / merkenOpschriften / merken
signatuur en datum: 1649 / OUDE ROGGE.FECIT.ROTTERDAM.
monogram: A H
VerwervingVerwerving Verwerving
aankoop in 1894-04-17VerwervingNummers / relaties

[cornelistromp]

you'r welcome.


my first 2 pounder Breech-loader cannon, 15 cal. after a short discussion with my wife put by her outside the house
It comes from a wreck, I just do not know which one yet.this breech-loader is auctioned by Christies and comes from the family of Michiel de Ruyter.
An identical Breech loader is described by Roth P 112/113, only this one is made for the VOC and comes from the shipwreck Hollandia.

My Cannon is cast for the Admiralty of Amsterdam, and the good thing is that the original chamber is there, with the townmark of Amsterdam and the sign of the Admiralty of Amsterdam, two crossed anchors and two A's.These are also on the cannon itself, but difficult to read.

probably also as suggested by Roth cast by Cyprianus Crans.

I added also a picture from Museum??? with a similar cannon.

best, Jasper

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... after a short discussion with my wife put by her outside the house

And you are surprised?
Well, i ignore the size of your house .
What a nice cannon ... with original chamber and everything

[cannonmn]

Thanks Jasper, neat stuff. I'm amazed at how the breech piece looks like new and there's so much wear on the gun itself. I've never seen a bronze breech piece in that newish condition, nor one that extensively marked!

Would you please give some details on the bottom photo in your response no. 13, the one with the large Dutch wreck-recovered cannon on the wheeled dolly? Was the gun marked, if so what marks, date, maker, owner, caliber, etc.?

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by cannonmn

Thanks Jasper, neat stuff. I'm amazed at how the breech piece looks like new and there's so much wear on the gun itself. I've never seen a bronze breech piece in that newish condition, nor one that extensively marked!

maybe it's the picture because the breech has the same patina as the cannon. On the last photo the top view without the carriage is easier to see.
Actually all the dutch breeches I know are extensively marked; a townmark, additional a VOC and town chamber or Admiralty and town chamber, often also a breech nr.
The condition depends on what influences it is exposed, here are archaeological laws valid.
please see pictures of the Henk Visser breech loader cannon, it looks like new and unused.

Originally Posted by cannonmn

Would you please give some details on the bottom photo in your response no. 13, the one with the large Dutch wreck-recovered cannon on the wheeled dolly? Was the gun marked, if so what marks, date, maker, owner, caliber, etc.?

Of course; Herewith an article made by Arent Vos for RACM.

for this size cannon a 3 ft. prototype can be made.

On 12 september MACHU partner RWS (Ministry of Transport, Public Works and Water Management) found a 17th century canon, in the Euro Maasroute to Rotterdam. Because there was no sign of a wreck nearby RWS decided to rescue the canon and taken it ashore. It has been handed over to the RACM where it was been examined at the RACM maritime complex in Lelystad by maritime archaeologist Arent Vos.

The canon measures 3 m. and 19,5 cm (2101 kg, 24 pounder). The canon was made in 1631 by Cornelis Ouderogge for the Admiralty of Rotterdam. The canon was in use on the ‘Aemilia‘ the flagship of Admiral Tromp. After 1654 it was in use on the ‘Eendracht’ the flagship of admiral Van Wassenaar-Obdam. In the Second Anglo-Dutch War during the battle of Lowestoft (13-06-1665) the Eendracht, then armed with 73 guns, duelled the heavier 80-gun English flagship Royal Charles. In the afternoon Eendracht was hit in the powder room and exploded, killing Van Obdam. There were only five survivors out of 409.

The cannon was found without a trace of wreck. However in recent years a few kilometers from the cannon, a wreck has been spotted (depth ca. 38 m.) and several objects were found in these waters that can be linked to the famous Dutch flagship de Eendracht, including a more or less indentical canon. Parts of the construction and the rigging of this ship have been seen and even filmed. The wreck is lying in a bussy ship route and anchorage area of shore. It has not been investigated properly yet.

best,