Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2011, 10:00 PM

Thanks Gene!
On the 'theatrical' front, most of what I was thinking of was the theatrical drama troupes in the 19th century or the occassional 'opera house' setting theaters in metropolitan areas.
When it comes to movies etc. the early days, silents and into the 30s it seems that there were plenty of authentic items lying around which ended up stockpiled into props warehouses in Hollywood and surrounding areas. I think quite a few authentic items were worn and used for close up shots and staging, however actual items used were suitably 'adjusted' for action shots. Some were still formidable in certain degree and some of the actors were indeed injured, but it seems usually blunt force type injuries.
Actually with the volume of actual items around, 'the Sheik' himself, Rudolf Valentino actually became a collector of antique swords himself and 'adopted' quite a few of them.
I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!

I recall in my early days back then fencing, and taking stage combat fencing. Ouch! You learned fairly quickly movements required as contact could be pretty convincing. ..but then I kept tripping over my cape!!!

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 23rd November 2011, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Gene!
On the 'theatrical' front, most of what I was thinking of was the theatrical drama troupes in the 19th century or the occassional 'opera house' setting theaters in metropolitan areas.
When it comes to movies etc. the early days, silents and into the 30s it seems that there were plenty of authentic items lying around which ended up stockpiled into props warehouses in Hollywood and surrounding areas. I think quite a few authentic items were worn and used for close up shots and staging, however actual items used were suitably 'adjusted' for action shots. Some were still formidable in certain degree and some of the actors were indeed injured, but it seems usually blunt force type injuries.
Actually with the volume of actual items around, 'the Sheik' himself, Rudolf Valentino actually became a collector of antique swords himself and 'adopted' quite a few of them.
I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!

I recall in my early days back then fencing, and taking stage combat fencing. Ouch! You learned fairly quickly movements required as contact could be pretty convincing. ..but then I kept tripping over my cape!!!

All the best,
Jim

LOL, I'm now picturing you swashbuckling your way across the stage Jim!
"take that you blaggard"

Fair comment, there were plenty of real swords and myriad other antiques used for background dressing, non combat roles and 'beauty' shots.

Many 'real' ones were cheap though. Often they'd have complete ones for non combat 'hero' props and modified ones of the same type for combat, switching when needed.

Best
Gene

P.S. Any pictures of you on stage in your cape?

Dmitry · 24th November 2011, 09:49 PM

Gene, I will definitely answer you, but in a short while. It's the Thanksgiving Day here in the old New England.
Tasty turkey to all, and peace!

Atlantia · 24th November 2011, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Gene, I will definitely answer you, but in a short while. It's the Thanksgiving Day here in the old New England.
Tasty turkey to all, and peace!

No worries. Happy thanksgiving.

Dmitry · 28th November 2011, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!

I forget the name of that company, Hollywood House of Props or something like that; they auctioned off hundreds of swords, some newly-made, but many composites with antique hilts + new blades, and vice versa. Bannerman also sold composites assembled from new and old parts.

This company, Hollywood Prop Supply, sells film/stage props which have steel blades, not plastic.
http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/NewEdgedW.html

Atlantia · 28th November 2011, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I forget the name of that company, Hollywood House of Props or something like that; they auctioned off hundreds of swords, some newly-made, but many composites with antique hilts + new blades, and vice versa. Bannerman also sold composites assembled from new and old parts.

This company, Hollywood Prop Supply, sells film/stage props which have steel blades, not plastic.
http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/NewEdgedW.html

Hi Dmitry,
these are just modern reproduction swords being sold for movie costuming use. Indian made by companies like Windlass, they are primarily just reproductions, readily availabe to the public as such on various websites. Much cheaper now than using the real thing but again, these are NOT for stage combat. They are dressing props, costuming.

There is only a superficial connection to this discussion.

You correctly repeat from my earlier observations that it was commonplace to use real swords that were cheap and plentiful for costuming/dressing scenes and to have modified versions of those same swords (sometimes with their blades replaced) for stage/staged combat.

What you seem to be trying to say is that in a time when genuine swords were plentiful, cheap and readily available in bulk quantities of identical type, or that classic 'rapier' type swords were routinely made from marrying fencing blades with a variety of other hilts, that film/theatre costumers were instead opting for more expensive, intiricate and historically incorrect individually hand made swords that were basically unift for purpose in the configuration that you'd have us believe they were received.
Why order a deadly, unmodified, heavy, military blade on a 'fantasy' prop?
Why have the hilt hand made from steel and not instead opt for (as many were) a cast base metal of flashy design with a 'safe' fencing epee blade suitable for stage combat or costuming?
Show me some provenanced period examples?

Atlantia · 28th November 2011, 08:32 PM

So, I'm going to throw some other suggestions out there.
I personally feel that there are a few options for this sword. Clearly the hilt is not a copy of any particular style, especially when married with a military blade. This is not a typical copy or 19thC reproduction.

Heavy military blade, good balance, peened tang, solid construction, etc. Quite fit for purpose.
I believe that it was professionally made in this configuration, not cobbled together at some later date.

Was it (and possibly others like Dmitry/Valjhuns) made by a sword supplier trying to capitalise on the 'Historismus' movement by producing a 'blending' of the modern and archaic in a still usable weapon?
Well clearly it IS a blending of styles and clearly it IS a usable weapon, so that would fit.
Clearly the makers were not attempting a historical copy, or flashy reproduction.
But regardless, was it made simply for 'show'?
Possibly, but why not make it more 'flashy' or historically accurate?
Why bother making it so 'usable'?
Was it made for a fraternal organisation or other archaic group as Jim suggests?
Seems like a good bet!
Was it a private commission for purpose unknown?
Possibly.

fernando · 28th November 2011, 09:31 PM

Hi Gene

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Heavy military blade ...

I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous

Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.

Atlantia · 28th November 2011, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene

I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous

Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.

Hi Nando,

Heavy in this rapier-esq guise

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2011, 10:31 PM

Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture

It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types.
I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon.

This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required.

Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers.

The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station.
While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.

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23rd November 2011, 10:00 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,862	Thanks Gene! On the 'theatrical' front, most of what I was thinking of was the theatrical drama troupes in the 19th century or the occassional 'opera house' setting theaters in metropolitan areas. When it comes to movies etc. the early days, silents and into the 30s it seems that there were plenty of authentic items lying around which ended up stockpiled into props warehouses in Hollywood and surrounding areas. I think quite a few authentic items were worn and used for close up shots and staging, however actual items used were suitably 'adjusted' for action shots. Some were still formidable in certain degree and some of the actors were indeed injured, but it seems usually blunt force type injuries. Actually with the volume of actual items around, 'the Sheik' himself, Rudolf Valentino actually became a collector of antique swords himself and 'adopted' quite a few of them. I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true! I recall in my early days back then fencing, and taking stage combat fencing. Ouch! You learned fairly quickly movements required as contact could be pretty convincing. ..but then I kept tripping over my cape!!! All the best, Jim

24th November 2011, 09:49 PM	#3
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 612	Gene, I will definitely answer you, but in a short while. It's the Thanksgiving Day here in the old New England. Tasty turkey to all, and peace!

28th November 2011, 08:32 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	So, I'm going to throw some other suggestions out there. I personally feel that there are a few options for this sword. Clearly the hilt is not a copy of any particular style, especially when married with a military blade. This is not a typical copy or 19thC reproduction. Heavy military blade, good balance, peened tang, solid construction, etc. Quite fit for purpose. I believe that it was professionally made in this configuration, not cobbled together at some later date. Was it (and possibly others like Dmitry/Valjhuns) made by a sword supplier trying to capitalise on the 'Historismus' movement by producing a 'blending' of the modern and archaic in a still usable weapon? Well clearly it IS a blending of styles and clearly it IS a usable weapon, so that would fit. Clearly the makers were not attempting a historical copy, or flashy reproduction. But regardless, was it made simply for 'show'? Possibly, but why not make it more 'flashy' or historically accurate? Why bother making it so 'usable'? Was it made for a fraternal organisation or other archaic group as Jim suggests? Seems like a good bet! Was it a private commission for purpose unknown? Possibly.

28th November 2011, 10:31 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,862	Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types. I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon. This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required. Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers. The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station. While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.