Polish L-guard sword: restoration project

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well posted illustration Evgeny!!! Thank you, shows these sabres in context.
Which of the Osprey publications is this from?

All best,
Jim

Hello Jim,
I don't actually know - found this picture while googling.
Now trying to find the link.

[ariel]

Cornelistromp:
Can you source the publication where your example was published and the validation of dating?
Thanks.

[ariel]

Once again we are arguing about the permissible extent of restoration:-)


We have seen a lot of examples of restored Moro swords on this Forum ( the first example that comes to my mind). Why adding a new scabbard, handle, silver parts etc. to them is OK, while here it is not?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Evgeny for the note, and again, excellent illustration so thank you for sharing it.

It is always good to cite sources for quoted material and particularly illustrations, not only that those of us here might seek those references for further use, but to satisfy copyright matters etc. Typically material used here is considered in fair use perameters, used for scholarly discussion....with the only caveats avoiding using material from live auction and commercial instances.
In any case, I know I like to keep references with my notes and they are helpful in future discussions.

When it comes to restorations, obviously degree and manner of such matters are a matter of personal choice to the custodian of the weapon. There are no dictations of what is acceptable or not issued here, simply matters of personal opinion. My own personal view for example on older historic weapons which are no longer used and have remained static as either hereditary icons or in the case of items excavated or found, they should be kept to as much the condition in the status ending as possible. Obviously, much as with items found on shipwrecks, they must be stabilized and corrosive activity checked.
There is typically much to be learned from artifacts found in situ, and I personally feel a much stronger connection to items unaltered and able to see elements of construction etc.

While I admit to having limited understanding of Indonesian, Philippines and Moro as well as many Southeast Asian weapons, it seems that they are much more culturally active and in many cases considered still within what we consider 'working lives'. As such, they are, again as I understand, much revered culturally and it is considered disrespectful for them to remain in damaged or compromised condition. Therefore it is my impression that rather than 'being restored' they are being maintained and properly cared for in accord with cultural expectations.

This is not to say that European or any other old swords are not culturally relevant or not entirely revered as traditional icons, which they emphatically are...it is simply that they are perceived in more of a historic view rather than current. They do deserve every bit as much respect and admiration as the weapons of any culture, and again, the manner in which that is observed and carried out is entirely a matter of personal perception.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by ariel

Cornelistromp:
Can you source the publication where your example was published and the validation of dating?
Thanks.

Ubokite Ostrice ( national museum zagreb) by Mario Kovac
isbn 953-6443-73-4

and the dating in my post #10 is wrong, it must be turn of the 17th and 18thC. 1690-1710 ( not end of 16th and early 17th).

[fernando]

Fascinating examples, Jasper.

[Jim McDougall]

Wow! Jasper these are beautiful examples and what outstanding photos!!!
These look professionally photgraphed and perfectly illustrate the particulars of these sabres. Its great to see these in real life rather than just the line drawings I have only ever seen. Are these in the museum you cited as well?
Thank you so much for posting these.

All the very best,
Jim

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Hello Jim,
I don't actually know - found this picture while googling.
Now trying to find the link.

http://swordmaster.org/2010/10/05/bi...elnickogo.html

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Evgeny, thank you so much for retreiving the source and sharing the link. Also, thank you again for posting here and sharing this fascinating sabre!
All the very best,
Jim

[Ypoznan]

Hello.
This is my first post in this forum. At the beginning sincerely apologize for my English. I am a Pole, and unfortunately I only know the Polish language. For communication I use the electronic translator. Sorry for the mistakes and ask for your understanding.

I am not a specialist in melee weapons, but I had the opportunity to read about the sword in Polish studies. Sabre with pictures of fellow Evgeny K just seems to be of Polish origin. This suggests the construction of the blade and handle. In the seventeenth century, like sabers used also in Hungary, but they differ in structural details.

Wojciech Zabłocki In the book entitled "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą" (Cutting the true saber) sword that is classified as, a polish saber hilt model 1b. In Polish, this type handle is called a "półzamknięty" (semi-closed handle). Sabres have this type of simplified design, handles and perhaps accounted for (as suggested by the author of the book) earlier model (transition) to the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber (as determined by the author as a type 1a). There is also the view that this type of sabers were produced for the less wealthy warriors.

Polish origin saber does not exclude the use of it by the Cossacks. Especially that thousands of Cossacks to serve in the Polish army as "Kozacy rejestrowi" (Registered Cossacks). I've just limiting to the formation haul was one of the reasons Khmelnytsky Uprising. It is therefore very likely that they used it as both Poles and Cossacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_Cossacks

A few words of explanation. I am a hobbyist and am interested in mostly Spanish Navajas. Cold steel is outside the circle of my interests but once I wrote a short article about perhaps the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber - and then that I met with different types of Polish sabers. This article is posted on my website is in Polish but it is possible to automatically translate it into English. If you are interested is welcome.

http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html

Pozdrawiam serdecznie
Janusz

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Janusz.
Splendid material you got in your website .
If you search for 'navaja' here in our forum, you will find pictures of some old examples and respective discussion.

-

[Ypoznan]

Thank you for the welcome Fernando.
Oh! I know this forum (when it comes to topics concerning Navajas). It is extremely interesting. I think everything has already read, especially interesting statements colleague Chris Evans. The first time I came to you has just a year ago in search of information about Navajas - but I registered only today.
Thank you very much for your warm words about my site. I hope that you liked.

[broadaxe]

As far as I know, we cannot speak of true "cossack saber", as they were part of a larger area and have adopted the arms found wherever they were. I think our friend Wolviex can elaborate.
Janusz, great site. I wrote a short essay myself about the navaja, alas I'm afraid automatic translator do not work well with Hebrew... http://www.collect.co.il/content.aspx?id=187

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

As far as I know, we cannot speak of true "cossack saber", as they were part of a larger area and have adopted the arms found wherever they were. I think our friend Wolviex can elaborate.
Janusz, great site. I wrote a short essay myself about the navaja, alas I'm afraid automatic translator do not work well with Hebrew... http://www.collect.co.il/content.aspx?id=187

First of all, Janusz I would like to join in welcoming you to our forum! and thank you for the extra effort in communicating in English, which is greatly appreciated, outstanding job!
I wish of friend Wolviex was still posting here as he was a most valuable contributor and our key insight into Polish arms and armour. We have not seen him in some time and hopefully he will return.

Well made point by Broadaxe, it would be difficult to classify a particular weapon or style of weapon to any of the Cossack hosts, as typically they were amalgams of various ethnic groups and of course used weaponry as available. In the case of our discussion here, it seems of course that this sabre is likely as I earlier suggested, mid 17th century and probably of Polish-Lithuanian origin. The original question asked if the blade was Genoan, to which I noted this was unlikely and more probably a Styrian blade ( as best as I can see no suggestion of Lvov production).
The exacavations at Beretschko from the 1651 battle provided about 41 sabres, three of which I believe were this type. Obviously the Polish-Lithuanian types suggest use by probably both Polish forces and Zaporozhian.As this host was also largely comprised of expatriates from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth it supports that these may well have been in Cossack hands as well.

Thank you again for joining us and very much look forward to your posts!

All best regards,
Jim

[ZEKIR]

Gentlemen,
Trying to establish whether the sabre is Polish or Ukrainian is a bit tough.

The type of blade and the handle is of Polish type but it could have been used by anyone within the Sarmathian culture. (Sarmathian Culture - I mean the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth of XVI-XIXc that Ukraine was a part of).

Big part of Cossacs were part of the State Register - which means they received money from The State to purchase a saddle, "uniform", guns, powder, tobacco, to support a horse etc.
Other Cossacs would be hired by big landlords and equipped in a uniform fashion, where the colors of their garments would be identical and the weapons would follow an identical design (made usually by one manufacture belonging to the landlord).

There were other cossacs as well who fought for expanding of the State Register. They were not a part of any state or private structure and wore any weapon that was in use in the region back then, which could have been Polish, Persian, Turkich, Indian, Georgian, German - whatever.
Plus! If not fo Cossacs, Austria would be a muslim country (Polish, Lithuanian forces saved Vienna in 1681) because nobody in the world did a better job fighting Turks. The natural consequence of the military escapades against Turks was an abundance of oriental artifacts (weapons included) all over Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania.

Generating a new brand of Ukrainian Sword is not so easy because the Sarmathian culture - uniting at that time Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians did not really vary from one region to another.
You could see that Hungarians were a bit different in their "practice" of Sarmathism. Even that is not apparent at the first glance.

It is a bit like trying to define an Austrian sub-type of blue jeans. Whatever we say Blue Jeans are American pants no matter who wears them.

Regards,
Zekir

P.S.
The sword is fantastic. It was an expensive artifact judging from the form of the blade. The weapons distributed by landlords to their cossacs are very practical but simple. This particular weapon belonged to a nobleman (Pole, Lithuanian, Hungarian or Ukrainian).

[Evgeny_K]

Thank you, Zekir!

Here are some pics of the blade after desalting and Dremel steel brush cleaning

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ypoznan

Hello.
This is my first post in this forum. At the beginning sincerely apologize for my English. I am a Pole, and unfortunately I only know the Polish language. For communication I use the electronic translator. Sorry for the mistakes and ask for your understanding.

I am not a specialist in melee weapons, but I had the opportunity to read about the sword in Polish studies. Sabre with pictures of fellow Evgeny K just seems to be of Polish origin. This suggests the construction of the blade and handle. In the seventeenth century, like sabers used also in Hungary, but they differ in structural details.

Wojciech Zabłocki In the book entitled "Cięcia prawdziwą szablą" (Cutting the true saber) sword that is classified as, a polish saber hilt model 1b. In Polish, this type handle is called a "półzamknięty" (semi-closed handle). Sabres have this type of simplified design, handles and perhaps accounted for (as suggested by the author of the book) earlier model (transition) to the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber (as determined by the author as a type 1a). There is also the view that this type of sabers were produced for the less wealthy warriors.

Polish origin saber does not exclude the use of it by the Cossacks. Especially that thousands of Cossacks to serve in the Polish army as "Kozacy rejestrowi" (Registered Cossacks). I've just limiting to the formation haul was one of the reasons Khmelnytsky Uprising. It is therefore very likely that they used it as both Poles and Cossacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_Cossacks

A few words of explanation. I am a hobbyist and am interested in mostly Spanish Navajas. Cold steel is outside the circle of my interests but once I wrote a short article about perhaps the most famous Polish saber - hussar saber - and then that I met with different types of Polish sabers. This article is posted on my website is in Polish but it is possible to automatically translate it into English. If you are interested is welcome.

http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html

Pozdrawiam serdecznie
Janusz

Salaams Ypoznan,

Hello and welcome to the Forum. What a superb website! you post at http://www.navaja.pl/roznosci/76-szabla-husarska.html

Here is all the information needed to begin looking at the replacement restoration hilt . Restoring the hilt following as exact a copy as possible or bringing up an old damaged hilt requires the same formula... "It should always be possible to return to the start point having caused no damage to the original piece" . Provided care is taken and that a basic programme of restoration steps is followed the weapon should be presentable at the end of the work and more or less indistinguishable from an original. Naturally, for those people who are not so handy with workshop practice the alternative is to leave it alone or have it done by an expert.
It is good to see the originator return to Forum where our enthusiasm, leadership and knowledge can assist and promote all aspects therein..through open discussion; always..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Janusz, I have been entirely remiss in not revisiting this thread and I just viewed your attached article....entirely excellent!!!! Thank you so much for posting this and also for sharing the outstanding work you are doing in restoring this sabre.
As Ibrahiim has expertly noted, it is a delicate task, but of such profound importance to carefull restore these weapons so they can be preserved properly. I very much agree that keeping your progress updated will be greatly appreciated.
The history of the Polish Winged Hussars has always been a personal favorite for me, and I know many here who are also deeply intrigued by the colorful history of the Polish cavalry. We have long been aware of the key influences of the weaponry and style they have had on the development of cavalry in the west, and always look forward to learning more. Your work is truly an inspiration !

All very best regards,
Jim

[Ypoznan]

Cześć

I'm sorry that I wrote not so long. I was very busy working on my site and noticed no response.

Ibrahiim and Jim.
Thank you very much for your warm words about my article. I'm very glad that you liked it. Cold steel is my interest margin (as I wrote earlier), the most interested in knives, especially Spanish Navajas. Article about hussar saber was ... from the heart, so to speak. Sabre is inextricably linked with the history of my country and Poland seen as antagonistic in great esteem. Even more glad that you liked it. But I must admit that in this matter (cold steel) I am rather layman. Article about hussar saber is vague, details can be found in the links I have given the article. In any case, once again thank you very much.

Jim
Polish Winged Hussars are the subject of pride in my country. One of the most effective formations in the history of Polish military. In addition to looking beautiful. In Poland, almost every boy and man had heard of hussars, even if it is not interested in this temat. Around this formation accumulated many myths and controversies. Even the famous wings. Still not sure whether they really were used in battle. Not all hussars wore them. Some wore only one wing. Military historians and enthusiasts still argue. Images showing the hussars with two huge wings represent the formation of a time when its military power collapsed. She then served as a representative role. Unfortunately, the country was rapidly failing, and with it the hussars. In any case, at the time of its heyday it was certainly one of the best cavalry in this part of Europe (if not in all Europe). Fast, agile, well-armed and trained with great tactics reigned supreme on the battlefields. Aroused fear among opponents. For the first 100 years (more than) its existence does not suffer any defeat. Later, it is true there have been its failure (rare), but they resulted from misuse or inability of the formation commanders. Only the Polish State crisis brought the twilight of this formation. Well, changing tactics and the conditions on the battlefields of course.

Returning to the topic thread. Hussars were using different types of swords, a Hungarian-Polish, hussar saber, other different types (for example, a semi-closed handles), and later karabela. The latter was undoubtedly the most popular sword of the Polish nobility. Acted as both a representative and combat. I plan to write well about karabela, but it is only in the future.

Pozdrawiam serdecznie (Best regards)
Janusz