Islamic Crossbow?

Rivkin · 28th July 2005, 07:42 PM

B.I.: you are welcome, no problem. I've finished Burke "History of Archery" and "Turkish Archery" by Klopsteg and I have to say their opinion on what is crossbow and what is not is entirely different. Only turkish bow where the stirrup mechanism is explicitly mentioned is certianly a crossbow (such things indeed appear in the mentioned article in "Mamluks in Egyptian ..."). The rest of the bows seem to regular bows, and "foot bows", which the article takes to be crossbows, is just the way these bows where used - two legs holding the frame, two arms used to draw the string. My impression from Burke that qaws something is not related to the crossbow unless some special device used to draw the string is mentioned, so only some of them where actual crossbows.

fernando · 29th July 2005, 01:05 AM

It's allways a pleasure to be usefull, B.I
I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso.
I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v.
But coming to Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before these Ottomans in the Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), having crossbowmen in their armies.
Keep Well

RSWORD · 31st July 2005, 11:20 PM

Brian,

I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research.

Regards,

Rick

B.I · 1st August 2005, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Brian,

I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research.

Regards,

Rick

thanks rick,
i will definately look into it. oxford is not too far and even closer via a telephone first. will track down the book and check out your reference.
much appreciated.

Aqtai · 2nd August 2005, 03:04 PM

I found Rex Smith's book, but there was no picture of a Mamluk with a crossbow.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd August 2005, 04:12 PM

Although this is a bit besides the question asked by Brian, I think it may be of interest. When reading ‘The Great Moguls’ by Bamber Gascoigne. Page XVIII. ‘On December 17 (1398) the army of Mahmud Shah and Mallu Khan emerged from the gates of Delhi: ten thousand horses, forty thousand foot and a phalanx of the dreaded elephants, clanking forward in their armour and with long swords bound to their tusks. On their backs were fortified turrets bristling with archers and crossbowmen and even specialists using primitive rockets and devices for slinging hot pitch. But this straightforward Indian magnificence was no match for unorthodox cunning. By the end of the day Mahmud and Mallu had fled back into the city and straight out again the other side, and the victorious Timur was pitching his camp by a large reservoir outside the walls.’

Page 11. ‘Through the winter of 1500 Babur was secure in Samarkand, but the following spring Shaibani Khan returned to besiege him. Babur again pitched his tents on the roof of the college, from which advantage point he directed operations – and he claims even to have done effective work from there with a crossbow when a party of Uzbegs had slipped into the city and were trying to storm his headquarters – but Shaibani Khan was more interested in starving out the garrison.’

It is interesting to note, that the Indians did use crossbows rather early, although it is the first time I have seen any mention of it, the same goes for Baburs use of a crossbow in Samarkand.

Sorry Gentlemen, no photos from the place of scene – only these quotations.

B.I · 3rd August 2005, 05:31 PM

its all helpful jens.
i must admit i cant help chuckling when anyone references bamber gascoigne, but i'm afraid its a very british joke.
bamber gascoigne is legendary over here for presenting a very popular university quiz on primetime tv. no idea how long he id it, but would think maybe 20 years, over the 70's and 80's. anyone that is 30+ will know who he is and because he was so iconic, he is almost at cult status here.
what no one actually knows is that he was a writer first and his book 'the great moghuls' is a great read and maybe the best book on an overall moghul history. not in depth of course, as its a 250 page paperback, but its very easy to read and gives a great base knowledge to expand from. i still re-read mine every few years (bad memory). his passion was always moghul art and architecture (and history) and he wrote a number of article for the V&A as well. i highly recommend his book for anyone who wants knowledge without the headache of hardline academia.

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28th July 2005, 07:42 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	B.I.: you are welcome, no problem. I've finished Burke "History of Archery" and "Turkish Archery" by Klopsteg and I have to say their opinion on what is crossbow and what is not is entirely different. Only turkish bow where the stirrup mechanism is explicitly mentioned is certianly a crossbow (such things indeed appear in the mentioned article in "Mamluks in Egyptian ..."). The rest of the bows seem to regular bows, and "foot bows", which the article takes to be crossbows, is just the way these bows where used - two legs holding the frame, two arms used to draw the string. My impression from Burke that qaws something is not related to the crossbow unless some special device used to draw the string is mentioned, so only some of them where actual crossbows.

29th July 2005, 01:05 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It's allways a pleasure to be usefull, B.I I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso. I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v. But coming to Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before these Ottomans in the Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), having crossbowmen in their armies. Keep Well

31st July 2005, 11:20 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,098	Brian, I was at the bookstore today and ran across a book that may be of assistance to you. It is a current book by Dr. David Nicolle titled "God's Warriors" and researches the arms of the Crusaders and those of Saladdin's armies from the 11th to 13th centuries. There are a few references to crossbows being part of the Muslims armies. One in particular that is pictured illustrates a crossbow mounted inside a shield. Although no date is provided one has to assume it dates between the 11th and 13th century since all illustrations provided date to this period. This particular document was referenced to the Bodleian Library, Ms. Hunt 264, f. 117 Oxford England. There are a lot of great source material referenced in this book that talk about the weapons used in this early time frame. If you do not have this book, it might be worth tracking down just for the list of manuscripts with data that would appear important to your research. Regards, Rick

2nd August 2005, 03:04 PM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I found Rex Smith's book, but there was no picture of a Mamluk with a crossbow.

3rd August 2005, 04:12 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Although this is a bit besides the question asked by Brian, I think it may be of interest. When reading ‘The Great Moguls’ by Bamber Gascoigne. Page XVIII. ‘On December 17 (1398) the army of Mahmud Shah and Mallu Khan emerged from the gates of Delhi: ten thousand horses, forty thousand foot and a phalanx of the dreaded elephants, clanking forward in their armour and with long swords bound to their tusks. On their backs were fortified turrets bristling with archers and crossbowmen and even specialists using primitive rockets and devices for slinging hot pitch. But this straightforward Indian magnificence was no match for unorthodox cunning. By the end of the day Mahmud and Mallu had fled back into the city and straight out again the other side, and the victorious Timur was pitching his camp by a large reservoir outside the walls.’ Page 11. ‘Through the winter of 1500 Babur was secure in Samarkand, but the following spring Shaibani Khan returned to besiege him. Babur again pitched his tents on the roof of the college, from which advantage point he directed operations – and he claims even to have done effective work from there with a crossbow when a party of Uzbegs had slipped into the city and were trying to storm his headquarters – but Shaibani Khan was more interested in starving out the garrison.’ It is interesting to note, that the Indians did use crossbows rather early, although it is the first time I have seen any mention of it, the same goes for Baburs use of a crossbow in Samarkand. Sorry Gentlemen, no photos from the place of scene – only these quotations.

3rd August 2005, 05:31 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	its all helpful jens. i must admit i cant help chuckling when anyone references bamber gascoigne, but i'm afraid its a very british joke. bamber gascoigne is legendary over here for presenting a very popular university quiz on primetime tv. no idea how long he id it, but would think maybe 20 years, over the 70's and 80's. anyone that is 30+ will know who he is and because he was so iconic, he is almost at cult status here. what no one actually knows is that he was a writer first and his book 'the great moghuls' is a great read and maybe the best book on an overall moghul history. not in depth of course, as its a 250 page paperback, but its very easy to read and gives a great base knowledge to expand from. i still re-read mine every few years (bad memory). his passion was always moghul art and architecture (and history) and he wrote a number of article for the V&A as well. i highly recommend his book for anyone who wants knowledge without the headache of hardline academia.