Islamic Crossbow?

Tim Simmons · 24th July 2005, 10:20 AM

Some how I do not think this is what you had in mind, it is a trifle 'ethnographic'. The crossbow was and might still be in use in Malaya. Tim

B.I · 24th July 2005, 11:17 AM

krill,
thanks for your input. i will check all the sources you have mentioned. i have access to libraries other than my own although i doubt i will find some of the books you mentioned. i will pursue them anyway.
jens,
thanks for the links you sent me, which show the development in china and surrounding countries.
tim,
great picture

i'd like to imagine a walled garrison to the right, out of shot but think it may be some unfortunate bird who's in for a bit of a shock.

i think what i am looking for is a way to suppress the doubt, academically, that crossbows were made and used by islamic forces pre 1500. the ones i am refering to are too close in construction to german pieces which infuses doubt that they were made by an islamic hand, as apposed to being adapted for use, or made by europeans in islamic countries and pulling in certain artistic traits.
so, i suppose i need the definate period mentions that krill hinted at, maybe in a muslim manual, or sculpture. i do really appreciate everyone help and am sure the truth can be revealed eventually.

fernando · 24th July 2005, 11:50 AM

In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html

B.I · 24th July 2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html

thank you fernando. although this steps into religion and mythology, it is still a dated mention of a weapon that could be the crossbow. i can use this, as this information will be passed on to someone (invloved with me) who will try and re-translate this quote, to verify that it is indeed a crossbow, and not a bow. much appreciated.
what i need is also an image, preferable in sculpture that will show the crossbow being used at the time in question.

fernando · 24th July 2005, 01:37 PM

Furthermore, it can’t be used by cavalry, due to the difficult loading procedure. So, if your are looking for such a weapon in the Islamic armies, I suggest to look into the Naval warfare or check areas, where towns were under the thread of siege.
Crossbows, if i learnt it right, since its inventing by the chinese, took all forms of dimensions and uses, from bolt to clay or iron bullit throwers, from siege giants to "small" hunting arms. Also its adoption was much spread within time and regions, not meaning they prevailed with those that originaly adopted it, or if those adopters were the whole of part of a determined race, islamic or other.
The portuguese XV chronicles are univocal at quoting that the local warriors ( along all that coast ) used normal bows, against the portuguese archers crossbows ( no translation problems ). This not meaning that all peoples of India were never familiar to the crossbow, nor that it was of portuguese invention or even of portuguese production ( plenty and good ones were german ).
On the other hand, crossbows were also in cavalry. As an example, King Dom Sebastião ( 1557 ) fought the Moors in Alcacer Kibir with a personal Horse Guard of crossbow archers. There are examples left.
However three centuries before, by the time of christian reconquery (1139-1263 ), the moor armies fighting the portuguese, already had the crossbow in regular weaponry. The "Cauçalarab", depicted in figure 85, was very light and quick to remount. Although it had less penetration power, it came to be adopted by the christians.
Just a pitty is only a drawing and not a picture or a sculpture, to be a solid example of islamic pre-XV century crossbow presence.

B.I · 24th July 2005, 02:37 PM

hi fernando,
i am not sure what it is you have attached. are these line drawings taken from something else and to what date?
the crossbow i am looking for is of german design, except the style of the ivory fittings, which is islamic in form. the definate presence and use during this period is a good start for me.
thank you for your efforts and please expand more as to where the information came from. modern (post 1500

) depictions are useful, if included with reference that i can backtrack.
thanks again.

Aqtai · 24th July 2005, 03:09 PM

I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

RSWORD · 24th July 2005, 03:18 PM

Brian

One avenue to consider is the archaeological evidence. This past March at the Timonium show one of our presentors was an archaeologist working in Israel. She shared pictures of one of their work sites which was a 13th century walled forte that was embodied by the Europeans. Many interesting items turned up but specifically in regards to what you were looking at were a large number of crossbow bolts of various sizes. There were also a large number of various size stone cannon ball. The evidence suggested the forte was definitely under attack as they found skeletons with sword and bolt injuries and they even found a horse skeleton with bolt still in the bone. Given the various size bolt, they must have had crossbow from handheld to a wheeled type to shoot massive bolts. Matter of fact, as I recall, they had several Crusader fortes under dig and were finding a lot of archaeological evidence to suggest the crossbow was in strong use in the 13th century. It doesn't help with what the bow itself looked like but it is strong evidence of their use.

24th July 2005, 10:20 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Some how I do not think this is what you had in mind, it is a trifle 'ethnographic'. The crossbow was and might still be in use in Malaya. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 24th July 2005 at 10:34 AM. Reason: SPELLING!!!

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24th July 2005, 11:17 AM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	krill, thanks for your input. i will check all the sources you have mentioned. i have access to libraries other than my own although i doubt i will find some of the books you mentioned. i will pursue them anyway. jens, thanks for the links you sent me, which show the development in china and surrounding countries. tim, great picture i'd like to imagine a walled garrison to the right, out of shot but think it may be some unfortunate bird who's in for a bit of a shock. i think what i am looking for is a way to suppress the doubt, academically, that crossbows were made and used by islamic forces pre 1500. the ones i am refering to are too close in construction to german pieces which infuses doubt that they were made by an islamic hand, as apposed to being adapted for use, or made by europeans in islamic countries and pulling in certain artistic traits. so, i suppose i need the definate period mentions that krill hinted at, maybe in a muslim manual, or sculpture. i do really appreciate everyone help and am sure the truth can be revealed eventually.

24th July 2005, 11:50 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html

24th July 2005, 02:37 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi fernando, i am not sure what it is you have attached. are these line drawings taken from something else and to what date? the crossbow i am looking for is of german design, except the style of the ivory fittings, which is islamic in form. the definate presence and use during this period is a good start for me. thank you for your efforts and please expand more as to where the information came from. modern (post 1500 ) depictions are useful, if included with reference that i can backtrack. thanks again.

24th July 2005, 03:09 PM	#7
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I used to have G. rex Smith's "Medieval Muslim Horsemanship: A Fourteenth-Century Arabic Cavalry Manual", now long lost. I'm sure one of the pictures was of a mamluk using a crossbow.

24th July 2005, 03:18 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Brian One avenue to consider is the archaeological evidence. This past March at the Timonium show one of our presentors was an archaeologist working in Israel. She shared pictures of one of their work sites which was a 13th century walled forte that was embodied by the Europeans. Many interesting items turned up but specifically in regards to what you were looking at were a large number of crossbow bolts of various sizes. There were also a large number of various size stone cannon ball. The evidence suggested the forte was definitely under attack as they found skeletons with sword and bolt injuries and they even found a horse skeleton with bolt still in the bone. Given the various size bolt, they must have had crossbow from handheld to a wheeled type to shoot massive bolts. Matter of fact, as I recall, they had several Crusader fortes under dig and were finding a lot of archaeological evidence to suggest the crossbow was in strong use in the 13th century. It doesn't help with what the bow itself looked like but it is strong evidence of their use.