Finally worth getting at 5am

[dooly]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Dooly

I know the damage is mostly modern, but often we see repairs and filled areas on these 'ethnic' guns. I would say that you have either the option of replacing the woodwork, or repairing it with infill and replaced areas.
Whats your plan?
Best
Gene

Hi .. I do restore my guns .. but i try to be sensitive And the wood work on this one could not be saved .. almost fell to bits in my hands.

I have attached a couple of pictures of a early hammer gun which was found in a farmers shed a few weeks ago .. totally rusted solid and the stock was snapped and rotten .. this is where i am at with it at the moment .. i have decided to "rainbow" the metal on this one and the hammers will be browned .. the stock is in the oversize stage and needs lightning once all the metal work has been fitted .. the wood is steamed beach and will be stained the the correct color once completed .. Luckily the Farmer had stuffed the barrels with oily rags before dumping it in the shed and the barrels are still in proof so hopefully this season it may bag a bird or two for the pot

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by dooly

Hi .. I do restore my guns .. but i try to be sensitive And the wood work on this one could not be saved .. almost fell to bits in my hands.

I have attached a couple of pictures of a early hammer gun which was found in a farmers shed a few weeks ago .. totally rusted solid and the stock was snapped and rotten .. this is where i am at with it at the moment .. i have decided to "rainbow" the metal on this one and the hammers will be browned .. the stock is in the oversize stage and needs lightning once all the metal work has been fitted .. the wood is steamed beach and will be stained the the correct color once completed .. Luckily the Farmer had stuffed the barrels with oily rags before dumping it in the shed and the barrels are still in proof so hopefully this season it may bag a bird or two for the pot

IMHO get rid of the "rainbow". Obviously done with heat. English locks of this age were not as far as I am aware "case coloured", so need to be browned to match the hammers. Similarly all other metal should be browned. Vintage looks about 1880.

[kahnjar1]

Having given my 2c worth above, WELCOME TO THE FORUM. That Islamic pistol looks magnificent, and well done with the restoration of the metal parts. By the looks of it, the woodwork is totally munted but IF it can be rebuilt with careful use of pieces of correct coloured wood and filler, then that IMHO would be preferable to a completely new stock.
Stuart

[Jim McDougall]

Welcome Dooly!
Nicely done on photos and showing the progression of your restoration work, which is outstanding and thank you for giving these worn old weapons the chance they deserve to be properly preserved.

The dealer you observed was clearly 'working it!' and I'm glad you got this instead of him

The acid etched script on the barrel is Islamic calligraphy known as 'thuluth' and seen characteristically in the Sudan on weapons during the Mahdiyya period in the latter 19th century. This was also known in Ottoman regions in Egypt and others in degree, though it had been largely been superceded elsewhere in Islamic inscriptions of Qur'anic verse by the Naskhi script.

This appears to be a trade produced flintlock made in the English style and the pistol is mounted in a style which appears much in Balkan style with the sharply angled neck and butt. These were often produced for native consumption , and these type guns were entering Cairo centers, often cheaply made in Leige in the 1870s or so. Apparantly mostly muskets were coming in, but it would seem flintlock pistols did as well in some degree.
The thuluth etching on this barrel suggests the pistol may have been handled during Mahdiyya times (c. 1884-1898) but as these were not commonly used by these forces, it is possible this may have been a special case issue or award.
The absence of the ramrod suggests also Ottoman style in the gun, as with them their pistols' ramrods (suma) were carried on belts.

Probably some interesting history with this one, and quite possibly some intriguing potential as a weapon from Egypt or the Sudan end of the 19th century.

References:
"Firearms of the Islamic World" Robert Elgood, London, 1995, p.224

Other good references regarding the British military pistols;
"British Military Pistols" Robert E. Brooker, 1978

I hope you will be restoring the stock from illustrations of the original as these trade anomalies were by no means standard, and it would be good to see this one kept faithful to the original. The locks were simply copies of the British ones, which were often reused of course.
Your work on the weapon as shown to date is superb!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

More thoughts:

Looking further at this pistol, I am more convinced of the associations to Ottoman style, and possibilities of Leige production for trade. Apparantly in Robert Elgood's "Arms of Greece,and Her Balkan Neignbors in the Ottoman Era" (London, 2009) , pistols with corresponding stock form are shown with an example noted from Brno (Czechoslakia) 19th c. While this was in Moravian regions part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to cross influence into Ottoman regions in the Balkans was of course inevitable.

While trade grade weapons were being produced in various regions for the Ottomans, it does seem that Leige, in Belgium was also competing. Elgood notes in footnotes on p.224 (#15) that Burckhardt ("Travels in Nubia", London, 1822) had described brisk trade in sword blades from Solingen being sold in Cairo, and that 50 years later (i.e.1870s) there were cheap percussion guns from Belgium being sold in Cairo and traded into the slave trade markets in Shendy. While these were usually muskets, and obviously percussion, it is a good indicator that Belgian trade weapons were being received in Cairo (under Ottoman suzerainty) earlier and probably the flintlock type weapons as well. Other references have noted trade weapons from Belgium being traded in Cairo to slave traders from Darfur and Wadi in these times.

It is worthy of note that the use of flintlock guns remained in favor in remote native regions and colonial spheres for a considerable time after the advent of the percussion lock, primarily because it was far easier to obtain flints than percussion caps, as is my understanding.

With these weapons moving southward with slave traders, it would not be surprising to see a pistol of trade quality receiving this thuluth decoration and being used by an individual of some significance in tribal standing in these times of the Mahdiyya.

As always, looking forward to hearing more on this from those with knowledge on these kinds of firearms, whom I know are out there!! . For further reference, the best reference on Balkan firearms is Robert Elgood's by far.

In any case, I hope what I have found is of interest thus far.

Best regards,
Jim

[dooly]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

More thoughts:

Looking further at this pistol, I am more convinced of the associations to Ottoman style, and possibilities of Leige production for trade. Apparantly in Robert Elgood's "Arms of Greece,and Her Balkan Neignbors in the Ottoman Era" (London, 2009) , pistols with corresponding stock form are shown with an example noted from Brno (Czechoslakia) 19th c. While this was in Moravian regions part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to cross influence into Ottoman regions in the Balkans was of course inevitable.

While trade grade weapons were being produced in various regions for the Ottomans, it does seem that Leige, in Belgium was also competing. Elgood notes in footnotes on p.224 (#15) that Burckhardt ("Travels in Nubia", London, 1822) had described brisk trade in sword blades from Solingen being sold in Cairo, and that 50 years later (i.e.1870s) there were cheap percussion guns from Belgium being sold in Cairo and traded into the slave trade markets in Shendy. While these were usually muskets, and obviously percussion, it is a good indicator that Belgian trade weapons were being received in Cairo (under Ottoman suzerainty) earlier and probably the flintlock type weapons as well. Other references have noted trade weapons from Belgium being traded in Cairo to slave traders from Darfur and Wadi in these times.

It is worthy of note that the use of flintlock guns remained in favor in remote native regions and colonial spheres for a considerable time after the advent of the percussion lock, primarily because it was far easier to obtain flints than percussion caps, as is my understanding.

With these weapons moving southward with slave traders, it would not be surprising to see a pistol of trade quality receiving this thuluth decoration and being used by an individual of some significance in tribal standing in these times of the Mahdiyya.

As always, looking forward to hearing more on this from those with knowledge on these kinds of firearms, whom I know are out there!! . For further reference, the best reference on Balkan firearms is Robert Elgood's by far.

In any case, I hope what I have found is of interest thus far.

Best regards,
Jim

Brilliant just brilliant thanks for the hard work you have put in what great information .. and is showing what a history and sites this gun must of seen .. the information re the stock is just the pointers i needed for a sensitive restoration .. I poped into my local wood man today and could not find anything worthy today .. i have another avenue to go down tomorrow .. lets see what they have in

Ps .. I do a lot of Metal detecting hear in the UK and have lots of musket balls which would fit the gun so i may make a box and keep them all together .. also when detecting i have found some "of the period" musket flints and i could fit one to the gun when completed .. we also find Lead flint holders for them .. Question is what would they have used in the country the gun was used, Lead / Leather / felt ??

Pps .. I have also found some Neolithic Arrow heads and tools .. would people on this forum appreciate seeing photos of that type of stuff ?

thanks again

[dooly]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

IMHO get rid of the "rainbow". Obviously done with heat. English locks of this age were not as far as I am aware "case coloured", so need to be browned to match the hammers. Similarly all other metal should be browned. Vintage looks about 1880.

Yes the rainbow .. was an optional extra i liked .. it came about when i was heating the springs for re-fitting .. you do get a few which were colored at this period but usually top end guns .. the workings are by Stanton & Co .. and the retailer is R.W Richards .. who i have not been able to find (i dont have the London book) but i would also put it about that date

thanks for the comments .. i should post some of my completed projects sometime

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by dooly

Yes the rainbow .. was an optional extra i liked .. it came about when i was heating the springs for re-fitting .. you do get a few which were colored at this period but usually top end guns .. the workings are by Stanton & Co .. and the retailer is R.W Richards .. who i have not been able to find (i dont have the London book) but i would also put it about that date

thanks for the comments .. i should post some of my completed projects sometime

Dooley: Great job refurbishing the metal parts. Well worth a re-stock. By all means, please post photos. I have a Caucasian pistol project just completed that I will post this weekend. And an interesting story with it.

Jim: Thanks for all the GREAT information!!! Rick.