Resin, traditional recipies

Neil · 18th March 2011, 04:21 PM

Hopefully this tidbit is of some interest. I have heard of fish glue being used to fasten Chinese spear heads to their shafts. Unfortunately I do not have a recipe or literary source to site. No doubt, one idea often leads to another though so I thought it was worth mentioning.

tom hyle · 18th March 2011, 10:46 PM

fish-bone/hide/hoof glue is more brittle than boiled down tree sap (pitch/resin); thus it is a good ad-hesive, but a poor co-hesive for filling large gaps, setting tangs, etc. Also, I think it remains water-soluble? Thus it is not traditionally used by professional cutlers for this pupose AFAIK although my experience of Chinese spears specifically is slight. Never seen it on a sword except as a non-professional after-market repair.
I am very interested to read about pitch/resin; tree species, thickening and application techniques, etc.

t_c · 18th March 2011, 10:46 PM

Great thought Gav - an official glue thread!
I'll try to make a humble contribution in regards to a Japanese "rice glue". If I remember the process correctly, one would grind down rice to a fine powder (mortar and pedestal) and then add water to make a paste. Apply the paste, let dry, and you had a semi-decent glue. I haven't tried this myself, but a friend had some mixed results with it though. Maybe someone else has better information on rice glue process.

I'd be interested in anyone's experience with making ( or information regarding) the black pitch that is found in PI and Indonesian weapons. What is that stuff?

tom

Rust Collector · 18th March 2011, 11:23 PM

There is mastic, the resin of Pistacia Lentisicus, it grows throughout the mediterranean I know it was in wide use across moughal India attaching tulwar blades to hilts. I don't remember anything about the turks using it.

asomotif · 18th March 2011, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t_c

I'd be interested in anyone's experience with making ( or information regarding) the black pitch that is found in PI and Indonesian weapons. What is that stuff?

tom

It it a mixture based on damar.
Here is a thread giving some details
: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=damar

You can buy damar maybe in specialised paint stores. (as in paint used for paintings)
But when you buy it from such a store it is than very clean and not black / dark at all.

Best regards,
Willem

Robert · 19th March 2011, 02:30 AM

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for but here are a few links on cutler's resin that might be of some interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutler's_resin
http://www.marquis-kyle.com.au/mt/000646.htm
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/i...e;topic=4491.0

Robert

tom hyle · 19th March 2011, 04:55 AM

The cutler's resin Robert mentions sounds like the stuff European cutlers use/used in table cutlery. It is rather chalky and not suitable for sword tangs.
I have a chunk of tree resin out of a tulwar hilt that is reinforced with twisted copper wires a-la re-bar.
The use of the right tree is important and from what I read in old sources, the process is rather tricky to get "just right"
Also, modern artist's/jeweler's black pitch is not the same by any means as the stuff inside old Asian sword handles, BTW. Specifically, it is softer, in my experience.

kronckew · 19th March 2011, 10:15 AM

nepali 'laha' used to glue on khukuri grips is made from tree resin and buffalo dung (for the fibre), maybe with a bit of beeswax. smells wonderful when heated

Tim Simmons · 19th March 2011, 10:29 AM

Gum Arabic, might be more suited to the region. My dabblings with tree and damar is that they are brittle unless very thick in section. Mixed with bees wax makes it much less brittle but opaque and the colour will depend on how dark the wax is. Adding powdered charcoal also seems to add to the hardness. There are resins that when set are not brittle and clear, I have examples but have no idea what the source is.

Picture of resins and small piece of resin with beeswax and 1kg block of beeswax actually two 500g blocks fused together. Dark colours might come from resin found in the wild or locally preperation as opposed to buying an industrial prepared product. Also one has now idea what additions and handling an item might have been through in the original making.

David R · 20th March 2011, 01:12 AM

Some time back on a site dedicated to Kukri's they mentioned a mixture of resin and honey as the glue to fix tang into hilt. By the way, hooray, at last serious discussion about these fixatives. I think many of us have sadly looked at a dismounted tulwar and wondered how to get it back together.
One of the posters on sword forum international gave a rough compo he used on a kilij type sword that involved resin and brick dust along with, I think, sealing wax.

David · 22nd March 2011, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

It it a mixture based on damar.
Here is a thread giving some details
: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=damar

You can buy damar maybe in specialised paint stores. (as in paint used for paintings)
But when you buy it from such a store it is than very clean and not black / dark at all.

Best regards,
Willem

Thanks Willem, i've been looking for this old thread.

tunggulametung · 23rd March 2011, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

yep, galgal is indeed used, but i'm not sure if that's the colloquial term for sap, or the name of the tree itself.

Pine tar might be the one used to seal the rope that wrap the hilt, just a guess since it has similar properties with Tien Ta Yao Gin

, maybe one of the ingredients of galgal too.

@ Migueldiaz, yes sukun is similar but kluwih has more esoteric properties in Java

, but I'll try both whenever possible. The fruit sap is sticky that you want to oil the knife before you cut, but I think the gata is too weak to serve the purpose, I'll try the one from the tree

.

migueldiaz · 23rd March 2011, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

@ Migueldiaz, yes sukun is similar but kluwih has more esoteric properties in Java

, but I'll try both whenever possible. The fruit sap is sticky that you want to oil the knife before you cut, but I think the gata is too weak to serve the purpose, I'll try the one from the tree

.

tunggulametung, thanks, and pls. do let us know what your experiments will yield!

tunggulametung · 24th March 2011, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

tunggulametung, thanks, and pls. do let us know what your experiments will yield!

Sure

, along with gondorukem which I have try and find not suitable. More soon.

@ mandaukudi: If I may suggest, hot water method first before other heat sources

David R · 29th March 2011, 11:50 PM

Gutta percha was the wonder substance of the Victorian age used to make stuff from removeable shirt collars to revolver grips. So good, so usefull, they rendered the tree from which it came, of the same name, functionally extinct. "It is illogical to render extinct a species you find so usefull" to paraphrase a certain Vulcan.

PUFF · 23rd March 2011, 09:29 AM

Thailand and many S/E Asian country use Damar composite and mentioned above. The the resin source and detailed recipe might be different as they are heavily relied on local availability.

Some variants for smaller knives are natural lacquer (insect origin) or other thermoplastic. Modern smiths may use scavenged polystyrene or polyethylene from junk yard as they used thermoplastic process for ages.

Mytribalworld · 23rd March 2011, 10:34 PM

Since some years I use a homemade mix of Damar and a kind of tar what I melt out of easyband ( mastic product to fix the roof)
its looks very much like the putty like they use to fix mandau handles and the resin cap. It glues very fast and strong and is always reversible ( just heat the blade) (To make the resin cap like a Dayak do is step two, however)

Arjan

19th March 2011, 10:29 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Gum Arabic, might be more suited to the region. My dabblings with tree and damar is that they are brittle unless very thick in section. Mixed with bees wax makes it much less brittle but opaque and the colour will depend on how dark the wax is. Adding powdered charcoal also seems to add to the hardness. There are resins that when set are not brittle and clear, I have examples but have no idea what the source is. Picture of resins and small piece of resin with beeswax and 1kg block of beeswax actually two 500g blocks fused together. Dark colours might come from resin found in the wild or locally preperation as opposed to buying an industrial prepared product. Also one has now idea what additions and handling an item might have been through in the original making. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 19th March 2011 at 10:58 AM.

20th March 2011, 01:12 AM	#10
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Resins Some time back on a site dedicated to Kukri's they mentioned a mixture of resin and honey as the glue to fix tang into hilt. By the way, hooray, at last serious discussion about these fixatives. I think many of us have sadly looked at a dismounted tulwar and wondered how to get it back together. One of the posters on sword forum international gave a rough compo he used on a kilij type sword that involved resin and brick dust along with, I think, sealing wax.

29th March 2011, 11:50 PM	#15
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	gutta percha Gutta percha was the wonder substance of the Victorian age used to make stuff from removeable shirt collars to revolver grips. So good, so usefull, they rendered the tree from which it came, of the same name, functionally extinct. "It is illogical to render extinct a species you find so usefull" to paraphrase a certain Vulcan.

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18th March 2011, 04:21 PM	#1
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Hopefully this tidbit is of some interest. I have heard of fish glue being used to fasten Chinese spear heads to their shafts. Unfortunately I do not have a recipe or literary source to site. No doubt, one idea often leads to another though so I thought it was worth mentioning.

18th March 2011, 10:46 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	fish-bone/hide/hoof glue is more brittle than boiled down tree sap (pitch/resin); thus it is a good ad-hesive, but a poor co-hesive for filling large gaps, setting tangs, etc. Also, I think it remains water-soluble? Thus it is not traditionally used by professional cutlers for this pupose AFAIK although my experience of Chinese spears specifically is slight. Never seen it on a sword except as a non-professional after-market repair. I am very interested to read about pitch/resin; tree species, thickening and application techniques, etc.

18th March 2011, 10:46 PM	#3
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Great thought Gav - an official glue thread! I'll try to make a humble contribution in regards to a Japanese "rice glue". If I remember the process correctly, one would grind down rice to a fine powder (mortar and pedestal) and then add water to make a paste. Apply the paste, let dry, and you had a semi-decent glue. I haven't tried this myself, but a friend had some mixed results with it though. Maybe someone else has better information on rice glue process. I'd be interested in anyone's experience with making ( or information regarding) the black pitch that is found in PI and Indonesian weapons. What is that stuff? tom

18th March 2011, 11:23 PM	#4
Rust Collector Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 11	There is mastic, the resin of Pistacia Lentisicus, it grows throughout the mediterranean I know it was in wide use across moughal India attaching tulwar blades to hilts. I don't remember anything about the turks using it.

19th March 2011, 02:30 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for but here are a few links on cutler's resin that might be of some interest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutler's_resin http://www.marquis-kyle.com.au/mt/000646.htm http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/i...e;topic=4491.0 Robert

19th March 2011, 04:55 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The cutler's resin Robert mentions sounds like the stuff European cutlers use/used in table cutlery. It is rather chalky and not suitable for sword tangs. I have a chunk of tree resin out of a tulwar hilt that is reinforced with twisted copper wires a-la re-bar. The use of the right tree is important and from what I read in old sources, the process is rather tricky to get "just right" Also, modern artist's/jeweler's black pitch is not the same by any means as the stuff inside old Asian sword handles, BTW. Specifically, it is softer, in my experience.

19th March 2011, 10:15 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	nepali 'laha' used to glue on khukuri grips is made from tree resin and buffalo dung (for the fibre), maybe with a bit of beeswax. smells wonderful when heated

23rd March 2011, 09:29 AM	#16
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Thailand and many S/E Asian country use Damar composite and mentioned above. The the resin source and detailed recipe might be different as they are heavily relied on local availability. Some variants for smaller knives are natural lacquer (insect origin) or other thermoplastic. Modern smiths may use scavenged polystyrene or polyethylene from junk yard as they used thermoplastic process for ages.

23rd March 2011, 10:34 PM	#17
Mytribalworld Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 400	Since some years I use a homemade mix of Damar and a kind of tar what I melt out of easyband ( mastic product to fix the roof) its looks very much like the putty like they use to fix mandau handles and the resin cap. It glues very fast and strong and is always reversible ( just heat the blade) (To make the resin cap like a Dayak do is step two, however) Arjan