Spanish ?? I.D. Help Needed

[Hotspur]

Modern fencers and students of smallsword play have mentioned the small pas d'ane as perhaps vestigal but that the grip of a smallsword was meant to use pinching between thumb and forefinger for steearge. This has borne out my own ad hoc experiences in manipulating the hilts of quite a few seemingly uncomfortable hilts but rotating the sword 90 degrees puts the tillers of the pas d'ane or indeed none at all in the manner of spadroons at better ease especially with shorter grips. Hard to describe and I am probably not conveying it well. They are not meant to be finger rings, in the sense many suggest.

non functional pas d'ane ( 18thc size, you will break your finger if you put one through the pas d'ane)

Thanks also for the additional running wolf marks and considerations. As the mark clearly shows up on blades back to the 14th century (we see these on cruciform types and larger bastards with inlay in latten and gold) more information is certainly better than not enough. The wolf is also regarded in the coat of arms for Passau. I do also have some notes regarding Solihngen and the migration there by the smiths while discontinuing the mark,as its use had been local. There is a somewhat simlar discussion of the wolf recently here. My own thoughts and regard of the uses and variety that turn have no partisan interests implied or inferred.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12289

The scabbard a later addition, absolutely.

Cheers

GC

Another earlier discussion elsewhere on the wolf


http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79247

Old Herman Historica page

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat49_A.txt

Another as a PS

http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/...ville_0100.htm

It is undoubtedly Ewart Oakeshott and his writings that influences a great many (including myself) but I am also wide open for other source work while remaining as objective as possible.

[celtan]

Hi G,

Adding to your interesting post on grips

Indeed, fencing styles do differ, but I do recall my fencing instructor showing me how to steady the grip by placing the index finger hooked _through_ the front small-sword's pas dáne, and guiding the blade's tip with the small finger. Of course, the modern fencing epee is grabbed as you describe, palm upwards.

Then, when you go to the Spanish School, with its high pommel/low tip classic stance, the grip again differs, there you really hold the very short grip with the index and middle fingers on each side of the ricasso beneath the cup's guardapolvo hooked over the cross guard, and the thumb held diagonally close to the guard's crux. Then, the small and heart fingers grab the large pommel for both aim and grip. Thus, the grip is shorter.

And if you go to a katana/daito, you virtually grip the tsuka with mostly the heart and small fingers... of the lower hand!.

Different strokes for different people..?

BTW,IIRC the doggie/wolfie motif was often inlaid with copper/brass.

BR, M

[Rikkn]

Overwhelmingly cool information guys, but in simple terms, what have I got here ??

[cornelistromp]

Late 18thc spanish small sword.

[fernando]

... with an earlier blade and a later scabbard

[celtan]

Hi R,
Can you take a lateral pic to confirm whether the pda is fucntional or not? (The 2 rings under the shell guard). That is the crux of the matter in the exchange between F, G and I. If its nonfuctional, the hilt is post 1770s.

BTW F, the hilt doths seem to complement the shell design...

BRs

M : )

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Late 18thc spanish small sword.

Originally Posted by fernando

... with an earlier blade and a later scabbard

What they said.

Might also add that based on similar examples handled by a friend, your example is of likely (Latin American) Spanish Colonial origin.

[celtan]

Hey! Just noticed the first pic is as lateral view as can be, the pas dáne IS functional, ergo, the sword is pre-1770.

The cast grip look very similar to several from the 1720-1780 as appear in Neuman's "Swords from the American Revolution".

LBNL, in Wither's book, there appears one English sword with several similarities, dating to the 1650s.

Sadly, no smallsword I have seen so far shows an identical guard . OTOH, it is similarly shaped to the Spanish M1720, although smaller.

To me, everything says 18th C.

BR, M

[M ELEY]

[QUOTE=celtan]
Sadly, no smallsword I have seen so far shows an identical guard . OTOH, it is similarly shaped to the Spanish M1720, although smaller.

These shell guards are more common on Spanish colonial bilbo types in the New World. We see them on that Brazilian cutlass we've discussed before, complete with striations. Maybe not an identical guard on a smallsword, per say, but bilobate guards on smallswords are encountered. Beautiful piece, BTW. Screams nautical/pirate/Caribbean-

Here's the old link with the Brazilian shell cutlass-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=pirate+swords

[M ELEY]

Well, that didn't work. Anyway, it's under the past post of "Pirate swords and weapons 2".