Labels, true or just heaps of bull****

Tim Simmons · 16th December 2010, 10:27 AM

Raw hide and leather. You can see that the hide was wet then wrapped around the stick then bound untill drying as a hard cover. What other treaments to this I do not know. The tassel leather part is 32cm long inside the outer hide cover and stiched with a bunched and twisted hair thread. The leather has also been smoked. All very simple but looks high quallity materials to me.

Tim Simmons · 16th December 2010, 10:43 AM

You can see where the inner wrap of fine leather with stitching end under the hide wrap. There is a small step where the thickness reduces. I have tried to highlight this with a sudmge mark. Many of the tassels are very delicate.

David · 16th December 2010, 12:03 PM

Tim, i couldn't see much in that first new grouping so i applied a little photoshop magic to bring out the details.
I'm still not convinced either way. This style of binding doesn't really look like any other Native American pieces i have seen, but it does look solid.

Tim Simmons · 16th December 2010, 05:29 PM

The binding follows the same basic principle as these examples. In these pictures the stick is bent round the stone. In my example it is two sticks, the main long handle stick and a smaller holding stick, both bent to hold the ball form stone.

spiral · 16th December 2010, 11:58 PM

The last pictures you added Tim show typicle ploughed groove American Indian tools, in which the rawhide sits within the groove.

I dont say that means yours are not good, but there very different than the examples you use to illustrate.

When I have time this Ill look through my references on this stuff,looking for similar. I have heaps of stuff on this subject {as you probably would guess,

}but its not been my major focus so far, so sadley cant realy add lib on it.

Spiral

David · 17th December 2010, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The binding follows the same basic principle as these examples. In these pictures the stick is bent round the stone. In my example it is two sticks, the main long handle stick and a smaller holding stick, both bent to hold the ball form stone.

I'm afraid that i agree with spiral here. The examples you show are not bound in the same way at all. I see no notching in your stone. In the new examples you show the rawhide is not bound across the stone and i see no excessive use od plant resin to hold it all together.

VANDOO · 17th December 2010, 05:52 AM

ITS DIFFICULT TO TELL WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT FROM THE PICTURES. I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS FORM OF CLUB OR ANYTHING RESEMBELING IT AND THE USE OF SUCH A THICK UNFINISHED COATING OF AMBER /RESIN IS A NEW ONE FOR ME.
FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IT WOULD APPEAR THE WOOD WAS EITHER A NATURAL FORK OR HAS BEEN SPLIT. THE STONE WAS PLACED IN THE FORK AND THE TWO ENDS LASHED TOGETHER ABOVE IT, THEN SENU OR RAWHIDE STRAPS CROSSED TO FURTHER SECURE IT AND THEN RESIN APPLIED COVERING THE ENTIRE THING.
IS THE STONE COVERED IN HIDE OR IS IT POSSIBLE TO SEE THE ACTUAL STONE?? IF YOU CAN SEE THE STONE CAN YOU TELL IF A GROVE HAS BEEN PECKED IN IT WHERE THE TWO WOOD STRAPS ARE.
WHAT ABOUT THE BEADS ON THE TASSELS ON THE OTHER CLUB ARE THEY OLD OR NEW?? IF NEW IT MAY BE SAFE TO ASSUME THE PAINT AND CLUB ARE MORE RECENT.

katana · 17th December 2010, 03:08 PM

Hi Tim,
2 thoughts about the clubs construction. I think the binding is likely sinew, certainly looks like it, with its 'striation', fiberous look. Dried sinew can look like plant cordage. Secondly, perhaps the stone became slightly loose within its binding and, the resin applied as a 'quick fix' to re-secure it. Dampness seriously affects sinew (and raw hide, for that matter) causing it to become pliable and stretchy again (causing 'looseness') alternatively the wood could have dried out and shrunk in a manner that the contact between the stone and branch 'lessened'.

No idea as to origin or authenticity.

As a footnote. I belong to a Paleo forum....many members construct spears , clubs etc using traditional techniques and materials. I am sure that some of these find their way into the mainstream market as authentic. I do not believe they are necessarily made with the intent to deceive, but think there are dodgy buyers whom artificial age them and pass them off as genuine.

Kind Regards David

16th December 2010, 10:27 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,986	Raw hide and leather. You can see that the hide was wet then wrapped around the stick then bound untill drying as a hard cover. What other treaments to this I do not know. The tassel leather part is 32cm long inside the outer hide cover and stiched with a bunched and twisted hair thread. The leather has also been smoked. All very simple but looks high quallity materials to me. Attached Images

16th December 2010, 10:43 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,986	You can see where the inner wrap of fine leather with stitching end under the hide wrap. There is a small step where the thickness reduces. I have tried to highlight this with a sudmge mark. Many of the tassels are very delicate. Attached Images

16th December 2010, 12:03 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,287	Tim, i couldn't see much in that first new grouping so i applied a little photoshop magic to bring out the details. I'm still not convinced either way. This style of binding doesn't really look like any other Native American pieces i have seen, but it does look solid. Attached Images

16th December 2010, 05:29 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,986	The binding follows the same basic principle as these examples. In these pictures the stick is bent round the stone. In my example it is two sticks, the main long handle stick and a smaller holding stick, both bent to hold the ball form stone. Attached Images

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16th December 2010, 11:58 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	The last pictures you added Tim show typicle ploughed groove American Indian tools, in which the rawhide sits within the groove. I dont say that means yours are not good, but there very different than the examples you use to illustrate. When I have time this Ill look through my references on this stuff,looking for similar. I have heaps of stuff on this subject {as you probably would guess, }but its not been my major focus so far, so sadley cant realy add lib on it. Spiral

17th December 2010, 05:52 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ITS DIFFICULT TO TELL WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT FROM THE PICTURES. I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS FORM OF CLUB OR ANYTHING RESEMBELING IT AND THE USE OF SUCH A THICK UNFINISHED COATING OF AMBER /RESIN IS A NEW ONE FOR ME. FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IT WOULD APPEAR THE WOOD WAS EITHER A NATURAL FORK OR HAS BEEN SPLIT. THE STONE WAS PLACED IN THE FORK AND THE TWO ENDS LASHED TOGETHER ABOVE IT, THEN SENU OR RAWHIDE STRAPS CROSSED TO FURTHER SECURE IT AND THEN RESIN APPLIED COVERING THE ENTIRE THING. IS THE STONE COVERED IN HIDE OR IS IT POSSIBLE TO SEE THE ACTUAL STONE?? IF YOU CAN SEE THE STONE CAN YOU TELL IF A GROVE HAS BEEN PECKED IN IT WHERE THE TWO WOOD STRAPS ARE. WHAT ABOUT THE BEADS ON THE TASSELS ON THE OTHER CLUB ARE THEY OLD OR NEW?? IF NEW IT MAY BE SAFE TO ASSUME THE PAINT AND CLUB ARE MORE RECENT.

17th December 2010, 03:08 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, 2 thoughts about the clubs construction. I think the binding is likely sinew, certainly looks like it, with its 'striation', fiberous look. Dried sinew can look like plant cordage. Secondly, perhaps the stone became slightly loose within its binding and, the resin applied as a 'quick fix' to re-secure it. Dampness seriously affects sinew (and raw hide, for that matter) causing it to become pliable and stretchy again (causing 'looseness') alternatively the wood could have dried out and shrunk in a manner that the contact between the stone and branch 'lessened'. No idea as to origin or authenticity. As a footnote. I belong to a Paleo forum....many members construct spears , clubs etc using traditional techniques and materials. I am sure that some of these find their way into the mainstream market as authentic. I do not believe they are necessarily made with the intent to deceive, but think there are dodgy buyers whom artificial age them and pass them off as genuine. Kind Regards David