Unusual shape Chinese?? Spear/ Polearm

Nathaniel · 25th November 2010, 05:05 AM

Now that this piece is sold, I was wondering what people's thoughts are on this spear/ polearm?

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=4184

The blade shape is not one I've seen before.

The engraving/etch on the blade looks similar to Vietnamese.

The silver collar reminds me of Thai/ Burmese, etc

Any thoughts????

Nathaniel · 26th November 2010, 05:58 AM

Anyone????

Iain · 28th November 2010, 01:00 PM

Seems more Thai/Burmese to me. As you noted the collar in particular. The form isn't that much of a stress of the slightly curved dha bladed pole arms I've seen before from Thailand.

Here's a shot I found quickly on google of a bunch of Thai pole arms. http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/36570994/original

Blades aren't visible but some of them look rather straight and could fit the bill.

Overall I like the piece a lot, a pity these often have the shaft cut.

Gavin Nugent · 1st December 2010, 05:05 AM

Hi Nathaniel,

Since our previous conversations I've delved a little further and I now have seen another complete example and its context with other Thai arms. After viewing this piece, I am convinced this is Thai, not Chinese.

Hard to call it a spear in the pure sense as I couldn't imagine this type of weapon to be thrown, there is just no symetrical balance to it, so perhaps a 'pike' is a more apt name.
In line with a pike, I see these as a thrusting weapon or to be dug in to the ground to brace against an onslaught, one that may be quite effective in numbers against an Elephant with that thick weighted head?

Gav

Nathaniel · 3rd December 2010, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Nathaniel,

Since our previous conversations I've delved a little further and I now have seen another complete example and its context with other Thai arms. After viewing this piece, I am convinced this is Thai, not Chinese.

Hard to call it a spear in the pure sense as I couldn't imagine this type of weapon to be thrown, there is just no symetrical balance to it, so perhaps a 'pike' is a more apt name.
In line with a pike, I see these as a thrusting weapon or to be dug in to the ground to brace against an onslaught, one that may be quite effective in numbers against an Elephant with that thick weighted head?

Gav

Thanks guys for chiming in....non quite sure it's Thai....definitely not standard among the common pantheon of Thai polearms. Even though the collection you are talking about Gavin was pictured with other Thai polearms, no one is clear though that it's Thai...there are some examples I've seen of Thai & Burmese polearms which have a knife like blade (ie sharp only on one side)...some symmetrical some not...and I've been told their influence is from southern China....still none of them have this unique shape

Can anyone think of other examples of polearms that are more knife blade shape like???

Gavin Nugent · 3rd December 2010, 08:32 AM

Hi Nathaniel,

The collection spoken of speaks to me as a whole, more as Thai in full context and it also coincides with other spears and polearms known in the same vein that are definately Thai. In particular, although not unique to Thailand, materials used such as the type of bamboo shafts and types of collars are good pointers. Even a number of the longest and highest end examples I have seen of quality Thai spears are on sturdy rather unrefined looking bamboo shafts. What I have also noted though and more so in Iain's link provided, is that these pieces in the Palace museum seen to have more refined timber shafts and a standardised type of collar

..maybe a regional thing, maybe a military thing, maybe a royal thing???
IMHO only, the consistancy of design traits at this point in time, along with similar blade stylings seen in the context of the collection, points to this region for me.
As Spears of SEA are a rather unexplored, I for one would love to see more work done on the subject....if the weren't so expensive to ship I'd be buying more, I love them long pointy SEA spears ;-)

Gav

Emanuel · 3rd December 2010, 04:40 PM

Hello,

Some time ago a gentleman on another forum posted an identical pole-arm along with a collection of Thai spears. He had purchased all of them in Thailand but could not recognize this blade style in the usual patterns. It came with a scabbard, which I thought was very similar to Indonesian tombak scabbards. This may, of course, just be a case of similar functional solutions than anything else.

Emanuel

Peter Dekker · 3rd December 2010, 05:48 PM

The engraved features on the blade remind me of Vietnamese weapons.

The overall shape is unlike any Chinese, Vietnamese or Thai weapons I've seen so far but the style and workmanship of its decoration certaintly points to the region around Vietnam.

-Peter

Gavin Nugent · 3rd December 2010, 06:07 PM

Welcome Peter, great to see you here :-)

Gav

Peter Dekker · 3rd December 2010, 06:24 PM

Hi,

Glad to be here too! I registered years ago but my account never seemed to work properly, there was something wrong with the permissions. I decided to give it another try today and suddenly noticed it works.

P.S. I got something of you here to wrap. There was some interesting stuff under the wrap, a piece of paper with characters. I'll send pics later, my laptop is currently out for repair so I don't have access to my other mail accounts.

-Peter

Gavin Nugent · 3rd December 2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Dekker

Hi,

P.S. I got something of you here to wrap. There was some interesting stuff under the wrap, a piece of paper with characters. I'll send pics later, my laptop is currently out for repair so I don't have access to my other mail accounts.

-Peter

Great news Peter, thanks! Is this the first grip or second grip?

Nathaniel, can you post your better images for all to view, they do from memory show more detail....it may help others solve the riddle???

Gav

Nathaniel · 4th December 2010, 07:23 AM

Thanks for the post guys

Glad to have the conversation going. Peter, I'm glad to hear you agree too with my thoughts on the Vietnamese style engraving. Gavin, I agree...it would be great if there was some more literature on SEA pole weapons.

Here are some of the first pictures I took, Gavin...not the best..little dark:

Gavin Nugent · 24th December 2016, 09:29 AM

Certainly Vietnam from the detailed images...I've been lucky enough to obtain a complete example a few years ago, complete with the armourers chop seal clearly stamped in the blade, although it has the more classical thick steel and ring collar.

25th November 2010, 05:05 AM	#1
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Unusual shape Chinese?? Spear/ Polearm Now that this piece is sold, I was wondering what people's thoughts are on this spear/ polearm? http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=4184 The blade shape is not one I've seen before. The engraving/etch on the blade looks similar to Vietnamese. The silver collar reminds me of Thai/ Burmese, etc Any thoughts???? Last edited by Nathaniel; 25th November 2010 at 05:31 AM.

1st December 2010, 05:05 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	since before Hi Nathaniel, Since our previous conversations I've delved a little further and I now have seen another complete example and its context with other Thai arms. After viewing this piece, I am convinced this is Thai, not Chinese. Hard to call it a spear in the pure sense as I couldn't imagine this type of weapon to be thrown, there is just no symetrical balance to it, so perhaps a 'pike' is a more apt name. In line with a pike, I see these as a thrusting weapon or to be dug in to the ground to brace against an onslaught, one that may be quite effective in numbers against an Elephant with that thick weighted head? Gav Last edited by freebooter; 1st December 2010 at 01:16 PM.

3rd December 2010, 08:32 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	what you speak of Hi Nathaniel, The collection spoken of speaks to me as a whole, more as Thai in full context and it also coincides with other spears and polearms known in the same vein that are definately Thai. In particular, although not unique to Thailand, materials used such as the type of bamboo shafts and types of collars are good pointers. Even a number of the longest and highest end examples I have seen of quality Thai spears are on sturdy rather unrefined looking bamboo shafts. What I have also noted though and more so in Iain's link provided, is that these pieces in the Palace museum seen to have more refined timber shafts and a standardised type of collar ..maybe a regional thing, maybe a military thing, maybe a royal thing??? IMHO only, the consistancy of design traits at this point in time, along with similar blade stylings seen in the context of the collection, points to this region for me. As Spears of SEA are a rather unexplored, I for one would love to see more work done on the subject....if the weren't so expensive to ship I'd be buying more, I love them long pointy SEA spears ;-) Gav Last edited by freebooter; 3rd December 2010 at 08:50 AM.

3rd December 2010, 06:07 PM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Welcome Welcome Peter, great to see you here :-) Gav

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26th November 2010, 05:58 AM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Anyone????

28th November 2010, 01:00 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Seems more Thai/Burmese to me. As you noted the collar in particular. The form isn't that much of a stress of the slightly curved dha bladed pole arms I've seen before from Thailand. Here's a shot I found quickly on google of a bunch of Thai pole arms. http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/36570994/original Blades aren't visible but some of them look rather straight and could fit the bill. Overall I like the piece a lot, a pity these often have the shaft cut.

3rd December 2010, 04:40 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Some time ago a gentleman on another forum posted an identical pole-arm along with a collection of Thai spears. He had purchased all of them in Thailand but could not recognize this blade style in the usual patterns. It came with a scabbard, which I thought was very similar to Indonesian tombak scabbards. This may, of course, just be a case of similar functional solutions than anything else. Emanuel

3rd December 2010, 05:48 PM	#8
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	The engraved features on the blade remind me of Vietnamese weapons. The overall shape is unlike any Chinese, Vietnamese or Thai weapons I've seen so far but the style and workmanship of its decoration certaintly points to the region around Vietnam. -Peter

3rd December 2010, 06:24 PM	#10
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Hi, Glad to be here too! I registered years ago but my account never seemed to work properly, there was something wrong with the permissions. I decided to give it another try today and suddenly noticed it works. P.S. I got something of you here to wrap. There was some interesting stuff under the wrap, a piece of paper with characters. I'll send pics later, my laptop is currently out for repair so I don't have access to my other mail accounts. -Peter

4th December 2010, 07:23 AM	#12
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Thanks for the post guys Glad to have the conversation going. Peter, I'm glad to hear you agree too with my thoughts on the Vietnamese style engraving. Gavin, I agree...it would be great if there was some more literature on SEA pole weapons. Here are some of the first pictures I took, Gavin...not the best..little dark:

24th December 2016, 09:29 AM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Certainly Vietnam from the detailed images...I've been lucky enough to obtain a complete example a few years ago, complete with the armourers chop seal clearly stamped in the blade, although it has the more classical thick steel and ring collar.