1439 o 1509 ?

[Cesare]

Salve a tutti
Mi scuso per la mia prolungata assenza
e propongo agli amici del forum queste due chiaverine (non ho trovato un termine inglese per tali armi). Queste armi evolsero in partigiane tra la fine del 1400 ÷ inizio del 1500.
Sono certamente collegate ad uno dei due importanti assedi che hanno coinvolto la fortezza di Legnago.
Il primo nel 1439, durante la guerra tra il Sacro Romano Impero e la Repubblica di Venezia
Il secondo nel 1509, all'inizio della guerra tra la lega di Cambrai e la Repubblica di Venezia.

Ritengo sia più probabile che tali armi siano collegate alla battaglia del 1439,
ma attendo l'importante l'opinione degli amici del forum prima di schedare tali armi.

Grazie
Cesare


Hello
I apologize for my prolonged absence
and propose to the friends of forums these two "Chiaverine" (I did not find an English term for such weapons). These weapons evolved into partisan between late 1400 ÷ early 1500.
They are certainly linked to one of the two major sieges involving the fortress of Legnago.
The first in 1439, during the war between the Holy Roman Empire and the Republic of Venice
The second in 1509, at the beginning of the war between the League of Cambrai and the Republic of Venice.

I think it's more likely that such weapons are connected to the battle of 1439,
but expect the important opinion of the friends of the forum before filing such weapons.

Thanks
Cesare

[mrwizard]

Hello Cesare,

Nice pieces
I don't know much about these weapons but always thought they were earlier (9th to 13th century).
Sadly, I don't know the english term either. The german term for this kind of weapon is "Flügellanze" which would translate to "winged lance" or "winged spear". I hope this helps finding further references.

There seems to be an "overview" paper (in german ):
Peter Paulsen, Flügellanzen. Zum archäologischen Horizont der Wiener ,sancta lancea´ [FMSt 3, 1969, pp. 289-312]

Best Regards,
Thilo

[Matchlock]

Hi, Thilo,

You definitely were on the right track.

Flügellanzeneisen, according to Rudolf Wegeli, Inventar der Waffensammlung des Bernischen Historischen Museum in Bern, vol. III, Stangenwaffen (hafted arms), 1939, were the older and basic forms, 8th to 9th century. Straps were not present yet.

What Cesare illustrated were their followers, called Knebelspieße, Swiss and Italian, 14th to 16th centuries, with haft straps.

Best,
Michael

[mrwizard]

Hi Michael,

Wow, the Knebelspiess labeled 1855 looks almost exactly
like Cesares pieces.

Only difference is that the straps are located
on the broad side. Maybe that gives a hint on where and when they are produced?
Putting the straps on the broad side makes the lance
more robust agains winding forces after the target has been hit. The way Cesares lances were mounted would make them more robust for slashing attacks.

Best Regards,
Thilo

[Matchlock]

Duly noted, Thilo !

Best,
Michael

[Cesare]

I finally got the English name of these weapons. is "Bohemian earspoon" and, according to research just completed, "Chiaverina" is the Italianization of Knebelspiess.
Some of my friends confirmed that the type of weapons to the museum is of Germanic origin and dating at the first half of the 15th century. In line with the siege of 1439, described in detail by a certain Sanuto, a few years later.
In that siege, the village and the fortress of Legnago were completely destroyed, but the losses among the German soldiers besiegers, were very heavy.

Thank you sincerely for all the answers. Are giving me a very valuable help

Cesare

[Matchlock]

You sure did an excellent job finding out the correct English term earspoon (German: böhmischer Ohrlöffel) - brilliant

That type of sturdy hafted weapons was of course both the follower of the Late Carolingian Flügellanze and the ancestor of the famous Friaulischer Spieß (English equivalent urgently sought ...), with its robust down curved side hooks!

As Thilo superbly pointed out, it obviously did matter in terms of stability whether the straps were fixed on the broad or on the small side of the socket!

Thilo, could you please post a few images or line drawings of those two differing ways of strap fixing, as those are esteemed very valuable by me concerning later hafted weapons like pikes and halberds? Thanks a lot! I'd come on in right after with never seen actual material.

Best,
Michael

[mrwizard]

What kind of drawing do you have in mind?
Something like this?

[Matchlock]

Exactly!

The most important thing is that they clearly show the different places of the straps, as mentioned by you.

Best,
m

[mrwizard]

3D-modelling is fun, so I just made another image with rivets attached and with the shaft attached.

[fernando]

Picking up Michl's post #3 ...
...That guy blowing his horn and holding his dogs (Fig 130 from Bern manuscript by Boners Eldestein) suggests some familiarity between the lances being discussed and those used for hunting. The first of such lances had no "wings" or "ears" and date from classic antiquity. As very often they penetrated to deep into the game's body, allowing the animals that used to fight back (bears and boars) to reach for the hunter, a cross bracket was developed in order to retain the lance head at a limited depth. This device was implemented in Portugal by the XIII century, some later than in other countries.
This tipe of hunting lance was called in Portugal "Ascuma", a term that tends to disappear from modern dictionaries. This word derived from the German "Asc", meaning "Esche" or "Ash", due to one of the selected woods used in their shafts.
Illustrated are a boar hunting scene by Gaston Phoebus (XIV century) at the Paris National Library and an engraving from the Tryumph of Maximilian (1526), showing bear hunters with long ascumas.
Can one actually consider these hunting lances predecessor to chiaverine?

.

[Matchlock]

Clever input indeed, 'Nando,

Though I am not expert enough by far to competently answer your query I am sure that the spears shown by Gaston Phoebus were the formal predecessors of the so called Froschmaul-Spieße (frog's mouth spears) that came in use in the times of Maximilian I, and the heavy bear or boar spears depicted by Hans Burgkmair in the Triumph of Maximilian were widely in use for hunting from at least the 15th to the 18th centuries.

I attach images of the Maximilian frog's mouth spear from the Graz armory, ca. 1500-20, and cut down to 2.60 m in the 1560's, in my collection (on top of the halberds).

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Two more Bohemian earspoons, ca. 1460-70, in the museum of Schloss Grandson, Switzerland (the two below the group of pikes).

m