13th century helmet from museum

fernando · 13th November 2010, 07:40 PM

Hi David,
You mean “dead” as if somebody “killed” it ?
No doubt Cesare found that our remarks trespassed the "friendly banter" limit and felt somehow ridicularized with the contents of some posts.
Maybe a certain extent of humor is o.k. if exchanged between us, "forum veterans", but remember that newcomers may not be ready for that.
On the other hand, Cornelis answered most of the questions posed by you guys; so we can’t say that the thread subject had such a sterile ending.
We will certainly have Cesare coming back with new threads and more interesting material.
Does the saying “Life goes on” makes any sense in here?
Yours humbly

katana · 13th November 2010, 08:14 PM

'Nando,
I'm pleased to hear that Cesare will continue posting

I would be interested in other items he has to 'post'.

All the best
David

cornelistromp · 31st December 2010, 08:24 AM

Hi,

I found that this open case also has been opened at the armsandarmsforum, there they found out that this particular Hat has been published in Armi e Armature Italiane, Aldo Mario Aroldi (Fig. 65).

M ELEY · 31st December 2010, 11:00 AM

Wow, Cornelis, great find! It's always amazing when another example of a questioned item turns up in a noted collection. Good show! I had followed this thread for awhile and its nice to see some closure.

Matchlock · 31st December 2010, 05:36 PM

Perfect, Cornelis,

I cannot believe that I overlooked that fine sample.

Once more posted here for easy comparison - nothing I guess can be brought forward against Cesare's helmet now (not disregarding the question how both breathing and seeing might have possibly worked with such a device ...)

Thank you and best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 1st January 2011, 10:21 AM

Hi,

I overlooked it myself too

Iam much more at home in medieval swords.
the more literature you have the less you can find back.

luckily people with greater knowledge than me in armor found the publication.

for me it was clear that it is a helmet, but unfortunately I could not date it, I still can not. (around 1300 is probably right)

best,

Matchlock · 1st January 2011, 05:11 PM

I share your dating of around 1300!

Thanks for the additional scans.

Best,
Michael

cornelistromp · 2nd January 2011, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi,

I found that this open case also has been opened at the armsandarmsforum, there they found out that this particular Hat has been published in Armi e Armature Italian, Aldo Mario Aroldi (Fig. 65).

Hi,

the fact that this helmet is published by one of the most leading specialists of Italian armor makes the credibility of the hypothesis that this helmet is a bucket or other household item, suggested by some forum members, a lot less credible.

However, experts also make mistakes but that is probably not the case here.
Iam sorry and realize it's hard to abandon a hypothesis, how convincing the evidence is.

kind regards,

mrwizard · 2nd January 2011, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

the fact that this helmet is published by one of the most leading specialists of Italian armor makes the credibility of the hypothesis that this helmet is a bucket or other household item, suggested by some forum members, a lot less credible.

Maybe i should add that i don't belong to the group of people that think that this item is a household item or a bucket. There were much better designs for such items at that time.
In my opinion this is -- how impractical it may seem in its current condition -- clearly a helmet.

My point was that the photos you posted are of the same helmet and therefore don't provide more information about date and origin that Cesare already knows.

kind regards,
Thilo

cornelistromp · 3rd January 2011, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Maybe i should add that i don't belong to the group of people that think that this item is a household item or a bucket. There were much better designs for such items at that time.
In my opinion this is -- how impractical it may seem in its current condition -- clearly a helmet.

My point was that the photos you posted are of the same helmet and therefore don't provide more information about date and origin that Cesare already knows.

kind regards,
Thilo

Hi Thilo,
sorry I misunderstood.
herewith a picture of another kettle hat from Museum of Malbork, I took the picture from the armsandarmourforum link.

Best,

fernando · 3rd January 2011, 04:30 PM

So ...
Let us assume for a moment that, these these things were battle accoutrements purposely made for assaulting (climbing) fortification walls; to protect you from whatever is dropped from above ... stones, boiling oil and the like.
The eye slits would be dispensable; you wouldn't wish to look up while climbing your ladder and risk having your eyes burnt by the oil ... or perforated by an arrow.
A wider brim would make too heavy; the shoulders would be protected by its own reinforcement

31st December 2010, 08:24 AM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,071	Hi, I found that this open case also has been opened at the armsandarmsforum, there they found out that this particular Hat has been published in Armi e Armature Italiane, Aldo Mario Aroldi (Fig. 65). Attached Images

31st December 2010, 05:36 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Perfect, Cornelis, I cannot believe that I overlooked that fine sample. Once more posted here for easy comparison - nothing I guess can be brought forward against Cesare's helmet now (not disregarding the question how both breathing and seeing might have possibly worked with such a device ...) Thank you and best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 31st December 2010 at 08:55 PM.

1st January 2011, 10:21 AM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,071	Hi, I overlooked it myself too Iam much more at home in medieval swords. the more literature you have the less you can find back. luckily people with greater knowledge than me in armor found the publication. for me it was clear that it is a helmet, but unfortunately I could not date it, I still can not. (around 1300 is probably right) best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 1st January 2011 at 10:40 AM.

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13th November 2010, 07:40 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi David, You mean “dead” as if somebody “killed” it ? No doubt Cesare found that our remarks trespassed the "friendly banter" limit and felt somehow ridicularized with the contents of some posts. Maybe a certain extent of humor is o.k. if exchanged between us, "forum veterans", but remember that newcomers may not be ready for that. On the other hand, Cornelis answered most of the questions posed by you guys; so we can’t say that the thread subject had such a sterile ending. We will certainly have Cesare coming back with new threads and more interesting material. Does the saying “Life goes on” makes any sense in here? Yours humbly

13th November 2010, 08:14 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	'Nando, I'm pleased to hear that Cesare will continue posting I would be interested in other items he has to 'post'. All the best David

31st December 2010, 11:00 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,229	Wow, Cornelis, great find! It's always amazing when another example of a questioned item turns up in a noted collection. Good show! I had followed this thread for awhile and its nice to see some closure.

1st January 2011, 05:11 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I share your dating of around 1300! Thanks for the additional scans. Best, Michael

3rd January 2011, 04:30 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So ... Let us assume for a moment that, these these things were battle accoutrements purposely made for assaulting (climbing) fortification walls; to protect you from whatever is dropped from above ... stones, boiling oil and the like. The eye slits would be dispensable; you wouldn't wish to look up while climbing your ladder and risk having your eyes burnt by the oil ... or perforated by an arrow. A wider brim would make too heavy; the shoulders would be protected by its own reinforcement