Interesting wootz tulwar for comments

RSWORD · 23rd October 2010, 02:19 PM

Very nice blade! The wootz has good activity, color and contrast and in my opinion is of Persian manufacture. The block ricasso you see at the forte are "cheeks" used to reinforce the tang root and the blade. If you look through the Figiel catalogue, you will notice a lot of blades done in this fashion but typically it seems to happen a lot with nice wootz blades that were probably imported and the tang had to be adjusted to fit the tulwar hilting so these cheeks were added to give stability. The U-turn feature is found primarily on Persian and Indian blades and also some Chinese blades. It is not uncommon for this feature to be on one side only. That is actual the more typical configuration. You have a quality Persian blade with very nice wootz probably late 18th to early 19th century with tulwar hilt. A nice find!

Atlantia · 25th October 2010, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Very nice blade! The wootz has good activity, color and contrast and in my opinion is of Persian manufacture. The block ricasso you see at the forte are "cheeks" used to reinforce the tang root and the blade. If you look through the Figiel catalogue, you will notice a lot of blades done in this fashion but typically it seems to happen a lot with nice wootz blades that were probably imported and the tang had to be adjusted to fit the tulwar hilting so these cheeks were added to give stability. The U-turn feature is found primarily on Persian and Indian blades and also some Chinese blades. It is not uncommon for this feature to be on one side only. That is actual the more typical configuration. You have a quality Persian blade with very nice wootz probably late 18th to early 19th century with tulwar hilt. A nice find!

Rick,

Sorry to throw this question back to you directly, but you have far more experience of diverse wootz than anyone I can think of.
I can now see that this blade is typical of persian wootz, but I'm still curious as to if the pattern is simply due to the methods of manufacture or if it is deliberate?
If it had hitches it would be 'ladder' pattern, but is this basic but rather beautiful pattern genuinely meant to represent flowing water? A novice like me often hears wootz refered to as 'watering' and this, with its flow and irregular swirls feels like the surface ripples of a flowing river.
Sorry, I'm rambling. Simply put, does standard persian wootz have a deliberate pattern, with a symbolic meaning, or is it random?

Many Thanks
Gene

RSWORD · 25th October 2010, 01:46 AM

Hi Gene,

The forging of the blade is a deliberate process to get this kind of result but the pattern produced is somewhat random. In this case, I don't think the pattern produced is meant to symbolize anything but rather what is produced illicits comparisons to flowing water, or sometimes woodgrain so these are more in the describing of what is being seen in the blade. Kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I think the pattern came first, and from that the descriptions of what was being seen. The only pattern that is "created" and not strictly the result of the forging process is the ladder pattern. This is a mechanically created pattern. The wootz ingot is manipulated during the forging process in a way that produces the pattern. It is an artificial ladder over the random pattern the wootz process creates. The variety of patterns that one can find is interesting and many classifications of these patterns have been proposed over the years. There are certain patterns, that due to their level of activity, color and clarity that can be associated with a certain region. Your blade, for example, has the color and consistency in pattern as well as overall activity(swirls, meandering lines, waves, etc.) that is most often associated with Persian manufacture. There are certain patterns which can be associated with India and certain patterns that can be associated with Turkey/Syria. If interested in the study of wootz and the various patterns and classifications, there are some good books I would be happy to recommend.

Atlantia · 25th October 2010, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Hi Gene,

The forging of the blade is a deliberate process to get this kind of result but the pattern produced is somewhat random. In this case, I don't think the pattern produced is meant to symbolize anything but rather what is produced illicits comparisons to flowing water, or sometimes woodgrain so these are more in the describing of what is being seen in the blade. Kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I think the pattern came first, and from that the descriptions of what was being seen. The only pattern that is "created" and not strictly the result of the forging process is the ladder pattern. This is a mechanically created pattern. The wootz ingot is manipulated during the forging process in a way that produces the pattern. It is an artificial ladder over the random pattern the wootz process creates. The variety of patterns that one can find is interesting and many classifications of these patterns have been proposed over the years. There are certain patterns, that due to their level of activity, color and clarity that can be associated with a certain region. Your blade, for example, has the color and consistency in pattern as well as overall activity(swirls, meandering lines, waves, etc.) that is most often associated with Persian manufacture. There are certain patterns which can be associated with India and certain patterns that can be associated with Turkey/Syria. If interested in the study of wootz and the various patterns and classifications, there are some good books I would be happy to recommend.

Thanks mate, you're a star! The information you've provided has been extremely helpful and informative.
Are any of those books easy to find and relatively cheap?
As usual for me, owning a thing begins the study.
I have an indian wootz Katar but the quality is nothing compared with this sword. I didn't think I'd ever find such a nice example within my budget.
Best
Gene

RSWORD · 26th October 2010, 12:47 PM

The one that I recommend that is probably the most reasonable to find and the most economical, but unfortunately not cheap, is Manfred Sachse "Damascus Steel", ISBN 3-514-00522-2. Double check to make sure it is the English version. What is great about the book is he covers all the varieties of damascus steel from pattern welds to wootz and he has lots of pictures to illustrate the type and he offers his own categorization of wootz. Should be easy to find and with a bit of shopping around you can probably find a copy for under $100. I think this would be a great starting point.

Atlantia · 26th October 2010, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

The one that I recommend that is probably the most reasonable to find and the most economical, but unfortunately not cheap, is Manfred Sachse "Damascus Steel", ISBN 3-514-00522-2. Double check to make sure it is the English version. What is great about the book is he covers all the varieties of damascus steel from pattern welds to wootz and he has lots of pictures to illustrate the type and he offers his own categorization of wootz. Should be easy to find and with a bit of shopping around you can probably find a copy for under $100. I think this would be a great starting point.

Thanks Mate, I'll keep an eye out for a bargain copy

I can certainly see why wootz is addictive!!!

Atlantia · 27th October 2010, 03:14 PM

I've been asked for some measurements of this sword.

27th October 2010, 03:14 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I've been asked for some measurements of this sword. Attached Images

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23rd October 2010, 02:19 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Very nice blade! The wootz has good activity, color and contrast and in my opinion is of Persian manufacture. The block ricasso you see at the forte are "cheeks" used to reinforce the tang root and the blade. If you look through the Figiel catalogue, you will notice a lot of blades done in this fashion but typically it seems to happen a lot with nice wootz blades that were probably imported and the tang had to be adjusted to fit the tulwar hilting so these cheeks were added to give stability. The U-turn feature is found primarily on Persian and Indian blades and also some Chinese blades. It is not uncommon for this feature to be on one side only. That is actual the more typical configuration. You have a quality Persian blade with very nice wootz probably late 18th to early 19th century with tulwar hilt. A nice find!

25th October 2010, 01:46 AM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Hi Gene, The forging of the blade is a deliberate process to get this kind of result but the pattern produced is somewhat random. In this case, I don't think the pattern produced is meant to symbolize anything but rather what is produced illicits comparisons to flowing water, or sometimes woodgrain so these are more in the describing of what is being seen in the blade. Kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I think the pattern came first, and from that the descriptions of what was being seen. The only pattern that is "created" and not strictly the result of the forging process is the ladder pattern. This is a mechanically created pattern. The wootz ingot is manipulated during the forging process in a way that produces the pattern. It is an artificial ladder over the random pattern the wootz process creates. The variety of patterns that one can find is interesting and many classifications of these patterns have been proposed over the years. There are certain patterns, that due to their level of activity, color and clarity that can be associated with a certain region. Your blade, for example, has the color and consistency in pattern as well as overall activity(swirls, meandering lines, waves, etc.) that is most often associated with Persian manufacture. There are certain patterns which can be associated with India and certain patterns that can be associated with Turkey/Syria. If interested in the study of wootz and the various patterns and classifications, there are some good books I would be happy to recommend.

26th October 2010, 12:47 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	The one that I recommend that is probably the most reasonable to find and the most economical, but unfortunately not cheap, is Manfred Sachse "Damascus Steel", ISBN 3-514-00522-2. Double check to make sure it is the English version. What is great about the book is he covers all the varieties of damascus steel from pattern welds to wootz and he has lots of pictures to illustrate the type and he offers his own categorization of wootz. Should be easy to find and with a bit of shopping around you can probably find a copy for under $100. I think this would be a great starting point.