Templar Sword?

[Atlantia]

Beautiful sword. I have one question though, why specifically Templar and not simply a later Crusades knightly sword? I always think of Christian knights adorned with 'holy' symbols etc.
I know the 'maltese cross', knights of St John, Templar connection etc, but was this symbol synonymous with the Templars only at that time?

[Matchlock]

Hi Gene,

The very same questions jumped to my mind as well. I hope we'll learn more about them soon.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Cesare, I would like to join the others in welcoming you here, and really look forward to the weapons you are sharing with us here, especially with the example at hand to begin with. Excellent photos, and superb description of a remarkable weapon!!

I would join with Gene and Michael in the caveat in applying the term 'Templar' as yet, as this was often collectively used in describing any of the number of monastic military orders of that time, and the cross was widely used on swords as a protective device. It seems that earlier it was most typically used on the scabbard, but of course may have been used on either.
The most distinguishing factors at this point are obviously the provenance (if this is among the excavated weapons you have noted) and as Michael has pointed out, the shape of the pommel. No doubt we will be consulting the Oakeshott references to clarify the classification.

The treble transverse lines are of course of key interest, and may lend more clues to classification.

At this point, a knightly sword c.1300 with possible monastic order association, and detail pending.

All the best,
Jim

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would join with Gene and Michael in the caveat in applying the term 'Templar' as yet, as this was often collectively used in describing any of the number of monastic military orders of that time, and the cross was widely used on swords as a protective device.

While i agree that we cannot assign this a Templar sword based upon the sign of the cross i must disagree that the term Templar can be applied to any number of monastic militaries orders. They were a very specific group.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

While i agree that we cannot assign this a Templar sword based upon the sign of the cross i must disagree that the term Templar can be applied to any number of monastic militaries orders. They were a very specific group.

Ahah! Someone is reading my posts!!! Thank you David.
Actually I should have worded that better, and perhaps noted that colloquially the Knights Templar appelation has in many cases been misconstrued in referring to other monastic military orders .
The Knights Templar were indeed a specific group, and existed contemporarily with the Knights Hospitaller (also known as the Order of St. John, later as the Knights of Rhodes and the Knights of Malta). While the Templars and Hospitallers worked together in Jerusalem and environs building fortifications and carrying out thier presumed duties, it seems that they were at times in conflict with each other as well as with another order, the Teutonic Knights.

Certainly in contemporary times there was probably little misunderstanding in identifying these groups, however in modern references and discussions it does seem that some interpolation of terms has occurred, usually inadvertantly and some references have used the collective 'Knights of Christ' term to more accurately attend to these variant groups as a whole. I must admit that much of the literature on Freemasonry and the history of the Knights Templar does present challenges in following some of the complexity in these groups.
Again, thank you for the most valid correction.

Norman, thank you for the Oakeshott categorization, which seems to fit nicely with the provenance which Cesare has noted, with a Templar presence in the village of Legnago near the end of the 13th century. Since the Knights Templars were dissolved officially in 1329, might we presume that the monastic order here were indeed still of Templar origin.

Returning to the sword at hand, again the Christian cross had long been used as a talismanic device on swords and scabbards as early as the 6th-7th centuries, and later of course. In many markings and invocations the Greek cross, similar to that on the pommel here is seen on earlier Frankish blades, and as noted, the markings on this blade III .... III with indistinguishable image in the center, are seen on 10th century INGELRII blades ("The Viking Sword" p.61).

While this blade is clearly later, and the Ingelrii blades lasted possibly as late as the 12th century, could this marking have been carried forward in marking this blade, as well as the traditional Greek cross protective decoration on the pommel?
It is known that some swords of the Crusades did indeed have the 'Cross of St. George' on the pommel in this manner, and it seems that 'MARIA' has been seen on the pommel of another, as well as probably other similar apotropaic or talismanic markings on pommels contemporary to this sword.

[Reichsritter]

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

[Cesare]

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

Hello
It can not be the cross of Savoy.
In 1300 the arms of Savoy was as follows:

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

Interesting note there Reichsritter, and would like to hear more on the use of the cross by the House of Savoy. I would imagine this region, even though now part of France, might have been perceived as N. Italy in a geopolitical sense in early times.

As Norman has well described, the use of the cross in many temporal perceptions as a symbol or device on material culture including weapons by no means seems isolated nor indicative of a certain family or group. As far as I can see the styles of cross or certain characteristics in thier imaging is more likely the product of heraldic interpretation and in degree artistic license from later periods. Obviously examples used in iconography such as tomb art and period artistic images can lend well to presuming a style associated with certain groups, but we must realize that these are based on the artists perception in large degree.

I really dont know that trying to determine the style of cross here is likely to tell us more on the group or individual characteristic of its owner, simply that the sword received an embellishment well established in practice in these times.

Thilo, very good note on the cross used by the Tuetonic Knights also. It does seem that the colors involved in mantles and crosses was pertinant, and the note on using metals in accord was well placed. I believe there are examples where these crosses were embellished on sword hilts in enamel, but few examples have survived with that adornment intact, especially excavated examples. Again, I believe that use of precious metal such as silver as used here, would have been seen as reverently placed, and perhaps more durable in use. Many swords do have such markings inlaid with latten (copper alloy inlay) but there does not seem to be a color oriented reason for the use.

Reichsritter, it really would be interesting as I mentioned on the Savoy use of the cross. Are there sword hilt examples?

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ahah! Someone is reading my posts!!! ...

Dear Mr. McDougall
Just to show you that we read your posts and as an aside, i will add that the Templars remained alive and kicking, even after their extinction in 1312.
Smart King Dom Diniz, not wishing to let their might and wealth be transferred to other orders located out of the country, never obeyed the Pope’s extinction bull and, in 1319, gave the Order the new name of Order of Christ, giving them a national identity and so managing to cease their pursuit, by achieving Pope’s John XII bull for the purpose.
Attached are the versions of the cross that evoluted until the present, the final version having been often used in Portuguese sails during the discoveries period


1 – Templar cross, used in Portugal till the order’s extinction in 1312. Can be found in engravings in the convent of Christ in Tomar.
2 - First cross of the Order of Christ. Appears in the convent of Tomar in 1352. Can also be seen in the Tower of Belem in Lisbon.
2 – Second cross of the Order of Christ. This version is dated 1400. Present in the Tower of Belem and other places.
3 - Final version of the cross, used until today. Dated 1460. It is present in the Tower of Belem (only place where the three versions can be found) and also in many other historic places in Portugal and all over the world.


.

[fernando]

Convent of Christ in Tomar.
Founded by the Grand Master Templar Dom Gualdim Pais in 1162.
We can see a cross painted in the arch of the famous charola (Templar church) and another one of stone in the XVI century Manueline style no less famous Janela do Capítulo (Chapter Window).

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... why specifically Templar and not simply a later Crusades knightly sword? ...

The style of the cross, maybe, Gene !
Weren't Templar crosses different than Christian ones?

[mrwizard]

The Teutonic Knights also used a very similar cross
at that time (black instead of red) AND they had with the "Deutschordensballei An der Etsch und im Gebirge" a province nearby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_der_Etsch

Best Regards

Thilo

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by mrwizard

The Teutonic Knights also used a very similar cross
at that time (black instead of red) AND they had with the "Deutschordensballei An der Etsch und im Gebirge" a province nearby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_der_Etsch

Best Regards

Thilo

Exactly, Thilo,

The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider.

Best,
Michael from Bavaria

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider...

And the cross used by Christians would often have the crucifix shape; but these thing of crosses is not so linear, right?

[Matchlock]

Well, 'Nando, my brilliant and large scale expert Portuguese friend,

Honestly I can't tell for sure. I am not an expert in medieval cross shapes but in period firearms, which sadly usually do not have any definable cross symbols ...

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

C'mon Michl, i am far from being a cross expert ... in any scale
Like you, i can't wait for Cesare coments on that subject.
Meanwhile, this is how some modern author repeatedly designs the cross in the coats of arms of the more than twenty Templar Grand Masters.

.

[mrwizard]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Exactly, Thilo,

The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider.

Best,
Michael from Bavaria

Yes, but they are not that different and maybe
there were variations.
Below is a picture of Hermann von Salza, grandmaster of the order 1210-1239. Of course this picture is not contemporay but from the 17th century.
At the 13th century the "official" cross looked somewhat like the second picture taken from the codex manesse.

[Matchlock]

Thank you, Mrwizard,

For posting these.

Though owning a facsimile copy, I seemingly forgot about the illustrations in the world famous Manesse-Liederhandschrift.

Would you call this a Tatzen- or a Kruckenkreuz (or just a classic Romanic cross)?

Medieval Ages rule!

Best,
Michael

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I think this sword falls into the sphere of the Type XI/XIa Oakeshott classification. The blade is probably a little short for XI but degradation can often be responsible for the foreshortening of older blades. The pommel to my mind is more akin to the Brasil nut form than the disc type. I would like to think it was a little earlier than 1300 but with the usual caveat that styles were used and made over a long period of time. The cross on the hilt to my mind doesn't necessarily suggest Templar or even Crusader although it may indeed have belonged to either or. Life in Europe at this time in history was inexorably entwined with the Church and its rhetoric so to put a 'Cross' on a sword to imbue one with that little bit extra 'protection' seems perfectly normal. Regardless of anything it is a really nice piece, the sin of 'envy' has reared its ugly head, and I look forward to the posts to come.
Regards,
Norman.

[Matchlock]

I'm pretty much on your side, 'Nando,

The internet does not seem to be quite helpful, either. Illustrated there is a great variety of so-called Templars' crosses, some of which I would call Maltese and others just Medieval cosses pattées ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

This seemingly is gaining suspension!

Best,
Michael