Sawfish sword

Rick · 25th August 2010, 02:52 AM

How can we say whether his intoxication is chemical and not spiritual ?

fearn · 25th August 2010, 03:50 PM

If that's how one repels demons with a sawfish bill, all I can say is that I hope it was worth it for him.

F

Tim Simmons · 18th November 2012, 10:42 AM

I think this is worth showing here as well as the European section. German renaissance parade sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st November 2012, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I think this is worth showing here as well as the European section. German renaissance parade sword.

Salaams Tim Simmons ~ I found an obscure reference book but it is in German "ASMAT MYTHOS UND KUNST" (Berlin Museum) ISBN 3-88609-381-6. This appears to be a masterworks of all things ethnographic in the region Asmat (PNG) I will endeavor to add pictures to your various excellent threads on the areas weapons and quoting this fine reference. It is full of shields bows and spears... etc etc with superb photographs.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; Picture of swordfish and extracts in German.

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2012, 04:59 PM

Ibrahiim, thank you for the images of the sawfish blade in the German reference....impressive research as always!! This establishes of course the presence of these items of ethnographic exotica from the Oceanic regions in Europen context, and now it will be interesting to discover just how far back these were brought into the European countries.

Naturally the possibility of these returning from the East Indies areas via Portuguese, Spanish and Dutch merchant ships who certainly must have been through areas which had indirect contact with some of the habitat regions with sawfish.

It is most helpful to have images posted like this one from the German book on a singular basis as you have done. It is by far best to post images of this kind separately so that observations and associated text can be directed to that specific image and example. In this way these important examples become essential to the discussion.

What is most curious, as we have noted, is this sawfish blade in mounts of medieval style, and shown as a German parade sword. The use of sawfish blades is of course well established in Oceanic regions, but seems most odd in this European context. What was the significance of this, and are there other instances of these kinds of features on other European swords.
We have this sword running concurrently on the European forum so it will be interesting to see what develops.

All best regards,
Jim

fearn · 21st November 2012, 07:10 PM

About that German parade sawbill: The thing to remember is that there are multiple species of sawfish. The large toothed sawfish historically was found north almost to the straits of Gibraltar (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdfs/ran...othsawfish.pdf). Thus, there's no logistical problem with a sawbill ending up in Europe during Renaissance time or before. Note that I can't identify sawfish bills to species from pictures, and if that sawbill came from an Indo-Pacific species, the connection would be more interesting.

Best,

F

VANDOO · 21st November 2012, 07:15 PM

IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO FIND THE SAWFISH OR ITS BILL FEATURED IN THE OLD DRAWINGS AND PRINTS OF THE "CABINETS OF CURIOSITYS" THAT WAS THE PRECURSOR FOR TODAYS MUSEUMS. THESE EARLY COLLECTIONS MADE BY ROYALTY OR THE RICH WERE VERY POPULAR AMONG THOSE CLASSES THEY WERE ALSO THE ONES WHO COLLECTED ARMS AND ARMOR.
THOSE WHO MADE THEIR FORTUNES IN TRADE ESPECIALLY SHIPPING OFTEN SOUGHT OUT OR HAD PEOPLE IN THEIR EMPLOYMENT SEEK THE EXOTIC AND UNUSUAL IN FORIGN COUNTRIES.
I WILL LOOK AND SEE IF I CAN FIND A PICTURE OF A CABINENT OF CURIOSITYS. CROCODILES, LARGE SNAKES,SKULLS, SHELLS ODD BIRDS AND SEA CREATURES ,ECT. A UNICORN HORN, COCO DE MER, DRAGON TOOTH, SEA MONSTER AND OTHER MYTHOLOGICAL BEASTS OR MONSTERS WERE SOUGHT AFTER FOR SUCH COLLECTIONS. BELOW IS A LINK TO WIKIPEDIA.
TWO PICTURES CAN YOU FIND THE SAWFISH BILLS. ENJOY

COLLEhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_curiositiesCTIONS.

T. Koch · 22nd November 2012, 06:20 AM

Wow Vandoo, the cabinet of curiosities (Wunderkammer) in the top engraving is that of the great Danish physician and natural historian Ole Worm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Worm) He was one of those old school great men of the world: Part multi(!)disciplinary scientist, part freakshow host - a true rock n' roller while keeping it real and a great inspiration to myself as a biologist!

As an albeit offtopic, (but so very cool) side-note I can mention that, when I, in connection to my work, recently went to meet the curator of the mammal collection at the current Zoological Museum of Copenhagen, I actually held the very same narwhal tusk from the engraving above! -you can see it lying on the middle shelf on the back wall.

Even though it was lying on a huge rack with many other prime specimens of narwhal, this one stuck out above all: Twisted and weird like a corkscrew it is, with a patina that'd make any ivory aficionado drool! Holding it in hand and feeling the brush from the wings of 400 years of history made the hairs on my arms stand up.

Cheers, - Thor

18th November 2012, 10:42 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I think this is worth showing here as well as the European section. German renaissance parade sword. Attached Images

21st November 2012, 07:15 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO FIND THE SAWFISH OR ITS BILL FEATURED IN THE OLD DRAWINGS AND PRINTS OF THE "CABINETS OF CURIOSITYS" THAT WAS THE PRECURSOR FOR TODAYS MUSEUMS. THESE EARLY COLLECTIONS MADE BY ROYALTY OR THE RICH WERE VERY POPULAR AMONG THOSE CLASSES THEY WERE ALSO THE ONES WHO COLLECTED ARMS AND ARMOR. THOSE WHO MADE THEIR FORTUNES IN TRADE ESPECIALLY SHIPPING OFTEN SOUGHT OUT OR HAD PEOPLE IN THEIR EMPLOYMENT SEEK THE EXOTIC AND UNUSUAL IN FORIGN COUNTRIES. I WILL LOOK AND SEE IF I CAN FIND A PICTURE OF A CABINENT OF CURIOSITYS. CROCODILES, LARGE SNAKES,SKULLS, SHELLS ODD BIRDS AND SEA CREATURES ,ECT. A UNICORN HORN, COCO DE MER, DRAGON TOOTH, SEA MONSTER AND OTHER MYTHOLOGICAL BEASTS OR MONSTERS WERE SOUGHT AFTER FOR SUCH COLLECTIONS. BELOW IS A LINK TO WIKIPEDIA. TWO PICTURES CAN YOU FIND THE SAWFISH BILLS. ENJOY COLLEhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_curiositiesCTIONS. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 21st November 2012 at 07:29 PM.

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25th August 2010, 02:52 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	How can we say whether his intoxication is chemical and not spiritual ?

25th August 2010, 03:50 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	If that's how one repels demons with a sawfish bill, all I can say is that I hope it was worth it for him. F

21st November 2012, 04:59 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Ibrahiim, thank you for the images of the sawfish blade in the German reference....impressive research as always!! This establishes of course the presence of these items of ethnographic exotica from the Oceanic regions in Europen context, and now it will be interesting to discover just how far back these were brought into the European countries. Naturally the possibility of these returning from the East Indies areas via Portuguese, Spanish and Dutch merchant ships who certainly must have been through areas which had indirect contact with some of the habitat regions with sawfish. It is most helpful to have images posted like this one from the German book on a singular basis as you have done. It is by far best to post images of this kind separately so that observations and associated text can be directed to that specific image and example. In this way these important examples become essential to the discussion. What is most curious, as we have noted, is this sawfish blade in mounts of medieval style, and shown as a German parade sword. The use of sawfish blades is of course well established in Oceanic regions, but seems most odd in this European context. What was the significance of this, and are there other instances of these kinds of features on other European swords. We have this sword running concurrently on the European forum so it will be interesting to see what develops. All best regards, Jim

21st November 2012, 07:10 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	About that German parade sawbill: The thing to remember is that there are multiple species of sawfish. The large toothed sawfish historically was found north almost to the straits of Gibraltar (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdfs/ran...othsawfish.pdf). Thus, there's no logistical problem with a sawbill ending up in Europe during Renaissance time or before. Note that I can't identify sawfish bills to species from pictures, and if that sawbill came from an Indo-Pacific species, the connection would be more interesting. Best, F

22nd November 2012, 06:20 AM	#8
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Wow Vandoo, the cabinet of curiosities (Wunderkammer) in the top engraving is that of the great Danish physician and natural historian Ole Worm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Worm) He was one of those old school great men of the world: Part multi(!)disciplinary scientist, part freakshow host - a true rock n' roller while keeping it real and a great inspiration to myself as a biologist! As an albeit offtopic, (but so very cool) side-note I can mention that, when I, in connection to my work, recently went to meet the curator of the mammal collection at the current Zoological Museum of Copenhagen, I actually held the very same narwhal tusk from the engraving above! -you can see it lying on the middle shelf on the back wall. Even though it was lying on a huge rack with many other prime specimens of narwhal, this one stuck out above all: Twisted and weird like a corkscrew it is, with a patina that'd make any ivory aficionado drool! Holding it in hand and feeling the brush from the wings of 400 years of history made the hairs on my arms stand up. Cheers, - Thor