Early Pandor Yataghan sabre??

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2010, 12:39 AM

The excellent book by Ms. Boskovic seems to be an outstanding reference, and I wish I had a copy! It is interesting about the reference to Baron von Trencks memoires being a forgery, but as sensationalized as his case was in the times it does not seem surprising that such things would occur.

What are a matter of well established and documented fact are the descriptions of the exploits of his units of pandours, which as noted were disbanded in 1749 as he was imprisoned. It is important to note that these troops under his command were assembled from mercenaries that were comprised of numerous ethnic groups from various regions. They were an essentially privately assembled force of irregular troops who obviously would have used thier own weapons, though acting as auxiliaries for the Imperial Army of Austria.

Since these troops were essentially private and operating outside the regulatory standards of the army, it seems that it would be impossible to determine exactly what weapons were used by whom, and they were using all types of weapons from regions which had been under Ottoman suzerainty.
There were of course yataghans of Ottoman form used throughout the Balkans, including Croatia, which comprised the larger component of von Trencks forces. Since these troops essentially became outlaw, it seems unlikely provenanced examples would have been reliably documented.

While I would not question the well established authority of this very esteemed author and curator, I am admittedly a bit surprised at the assertion that no yataghans were in use in these regions, thus presumably could not have been used by von Trencks pandours. This would be like saying that the 'trench gun' shotguns were not ever used in Viet Nam, since they were outside regulation .

It must be conceded that a great number of the weapons that are believed to have been used by pandours, particularly the horsemen,often had heavier deep bellied 'yataghan' blades, and typically European style hilts or in many cases karabela or shallow yataghan eared types, along with of course varying European style sabres. The foot troops, however, seem to have in some degree carried the more familiar yataghan as a secondary weapon in the sash in janissary fashion. It seems I was once corrected in my assumption that Balkan or European forces fighting Turks would not have also had yataghans

some years ago.

The attached map is to illustrate the proximity of these regions, and the likely potential diffusion of the yataghan, as well as a couple of the illustrations illustrating 'panduren' and are probably among those being disputed....and our man in question, the Baron.

Dmitry · 23rd July 2010, 02:35 AM

That is an excellent point. To my knowledge there was no uniformed "pandur sword" pattern.
I feel that for the sake of posterity it must be stressed that to call a European hunting sword a "Pandur sword" based only on the blade marked VIVAT PANDUR would be erroneous.
This was, in my opinion, just a popular hirschfanger and jagdplaute blade inscription in the mid to late 1700s, which possibly and probably originated in Austria.

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2010, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

That is an excellent point. To my knowledge there was no uniformed "pandur sword" pattern.
I feel that for the sake of posterity it must be stressed that to call a European hunting sword a "Pandur sword" based only on the blade marked VIVAT PANDUR would be erroneous.
This was, in my opinion, just a popular hirschfanger and jagdplaute blade inscription in the mid to late 1700s, which possibly and probably originated in Austria.

Thanks very much Dmitry, I very much appreciate the support on that. Its been about 15 years since my original research on this intriguing topic, and while these Vivat Pandur swords are really attractive and appealing, they are just as noted.
R.D.C. Evans ("The Plug Bayonet" ) also wrote some great material on this motto on the plug bayonets with the motto.

All best regards,
Jim

Andy Stevens · 23rd July 2010, 11:41 AM

Thankyou for the replies so far gentlemen on this fascinating subject. We aquired this sword in as part of a group buy, so any comments made are taken happily and in a constructive manner. We're still rather interested in opinions regarding the hilt decoration, as a fair degree of work has been put into its construction-the bone inset disks are all hand made and finished and the ears of the handle demonstrate a skilled hand. Was this then somebodies attempt to copy the much more ornate 'true' yataghans or is simply a local interpration of such incorporating local style and design? The blade, when held for closer inspection, appears to us no worse than those found on some Indian munition grade tulwars- crude but effective. As for the sword being ill fitting, that was at first our thought, but having played around with it a wee bit, we've come to the conclusion that the parts may have once fitted snuggly and the blade when mounted the correct way round would have made this an effective weapon. These is just what we see close up. Whatever it be, a genuine old fighter or a still vintage pretender, we are glad that its seen the light of day and raised a few eyebrows!

thanks again,
Here are some pics showing some more detail of the blade.
Andy and Karina.

VANDOO · 24th July 2010, 01:43 AM

A INTERESTING SWORD IT APPEARS TO HAVE SUFFERED FROM EXPOSURE TO THE ELEMENTS FOR QUITE A SPELL. TO ME ITS WEATHERING AND PITTING LOOKS NATURAL NOT CONTRIVED BY MAN. THE BLADE IS TOO FAR GONE TO BE WORTH RESTORATION BUT YOU COULD CONTINUE TO CLEAN THE SECTION AND ETCH TO GET A BETTER IDEA AS TO ITS QUALITY. CLEAN UP THE HANDLE A BIT AND PUT A BIT OF MINERAL OR BABY OIL ON THE HORN AND BONE. THE HORN IS TOO FAR GONE TO RESTORE AND I WOULD JUST LEAVE IT AS IS OTHER THAN REMOVING THE DIRT AND APPLYING SOME OIL. I AM ASSUMING THE DECORATED DISKS ARE BONE AS I DOUBT IVORY COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE NEGLECT AND EXPOSURE THIS SOWRD HAD ENDURED. I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS ARTEFACT GRADE, IF YOU WANT TO DO CARBON DATE OR ANY TESTING DO IT BEFORE APPLYING ANY PRESERVITIVES OR OIL. CLEANING IT UP A BIT AND LOOKING IT OVER CLOSELY WITH GOOD LIGHT AND MAGNIFICATION MAY REVEAL SOMETHING TO HELP CONFIRM ITS AGE OR AUTHENCITY. THANKS FOR SHAREING GOOD LUCK

Rick · 24th July 2010, 01:54 AM

Whatever this blade be I believe it has suffered the indignity of shoddy workmanship before ever it showed any age .

Instincts tell me to look askance at this piece .

More emoticons please ...

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2010, 03:11 AM

These are some hirschfanger type swords in Vienna in a museum display which have been suggested 'of the type' often carried by pandours. The example on the left has a crossguard which seems reminiscent of the much heavier and workmanlike guard on the example we are discussing. It should be noted of course that the grip is of the familiar European hanger form of the mid 18th century and for quite a number of years later.

I would point out that the blade on this example in the Vienna illustration has a very curious clipped point. In Gerhard Seifert's 1962 book, "Schwert Degen Sabel" he has a group of line drawings illustrating blade sections and point types and terminology......there is a tip remarkably like the one on this Vienna sword which carries the term 'pandour point'. There was unfortunately no further material elaborating on the source of the term, but interesting to see of course the pandour term. Actually back in those days, I admit to being among those who had no idea what a pandour was !!

Getting back to Andys sword, it would be tempting to connect the guard to being of somewhat that style, however it is far outside the mid 18th century period in my opinion, and far too heavy to be considered of this type.

The 'pandour' use of yataghans would likely have been of traditional form, by the foot troops as previously noted, and these did not have guards of course....as noted as well, it is only presumed what kinds of weapons would have been used, but yataghans as far as I know did not have this kind of guard.

The hangers used by von Trencks forces, as shown by type in Buttin (1933) were typically of karabela type hilt, and did not have yataghan type blades.
There was apparantly a type of yataghan blade, larger and deep bellied, and believed to have been used by cavalry of European auxiliary troops modelled on the pandour units, from later in the 18th century. These swords seem to have had cleft yataghan style hilts of staghorn and were based on many of the hirshfangers of the period. One of these type blades is seen here in an illustration posted by Libra on a concurrent thread with an ivory hilt example but not associated with the units I refer to. The very large deep bellied blade I have seen before on examples that are believed to have been from these European units with troops from Balkan regions. The ones I have seen did not have this kind of wootz blade however, but typically were European made with cyphers and heraldic motif.

Looking at Andys example here, by what can be seen photographically, the age seems somewhat in resemblance to artifacts I have seen often while travelling through desert regions here in the southwest, most of which seem to date from about 1870s to 1900. This has the appearance of an item which remained static in an old building or such surrounding in very dry heat for a very long time. There is just enough moisture to bring rust, but intermittant heat to prevent dramatic overtaking of corrosion. That would be about the limit of my forensics skill

I personally think it may well be a theatrical item of those times, which though it might sound dismissive, I think these have a certain intrinsic value as period novelty items regardless.

A rough piece indeed, but still historic in its own right. ...and surely brought forward some great discussion on the pandours!!

All the best,
Jim

23rd July 2010, 12:39 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,851	The excellent book by Ms. Boskovic seems to be an outstanding reference, and I wish I had a copy! It is interesting about the reference to Baron von Trencks memoires being a forgery, but as sensationalized as his case was in the times it does not seem surprising that such things would occur. What are a matter of well established and documented fact are the descriptions of the exploits of his units of pandours, which as noted were disbanded in 1749 as he was imprisoned. It is important to note that these troops under his command were assembled from mercenaries that were comprised of numerous ethnic groups from various regions. They were an essentially privately assembled force of irregular troops who obviously would have used thier own weapons, though acting as auxiliaries for the Imperial Army of Austria. Since these troops were essentially private and operating outside the regulatory standards of the army, it seems that it would be impossible to determine exactly what weapons were used by whom, and they were using all types of weapons from regions which had been under Ottoman suzerainty. There were of course yataghans of Ottoman form used throughout the Balkans, including Croatia, which comprised the larger component of von Trencks forces. Since these troops essentially became outlaw, it seems unlikely provenanced examples would have been reliably documented. While I would not question the well established authority of this very esteemed author and curator, I am admittedly a bit surprised at the assertion that no yataghans were in use in these regions, thus presumably could not have been used by von Trencks pandours. This would be like saying that the 'trench gun' shotguns were not ever used in Viet Nam, since they were outside regulation . It must be conceded that a great number of the weapons that are believed to have been used by pandours, particularly the horsemen,often had heavier deep bellied 'yataghan' blades, and typically European style hilts or in many cases karabela or shallow yataghan eared types, along with of course varying European style sabres. The foot troops, however, seem to have in some degree carried the more familiar yataghan as a secondary weapon in the sash in janissary fashion. It seems I was once corrected in my assumption that Balkan or European forces fighting Turks would not have also had yataghans some years ago. The attached map is to illustrate the proximity of these regions, and the likely potential diffusion of the yataghan, as well as a couple of the illustrations illustrating 'panduren' and are probably among those being disputed....and our man in question, the Baron. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd July 2010 at 01:38 AM.

23rd July 2010, 11:41 AM	#4
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Thankyou for the replies so far gentlemen on this fascinating subject. We aquired this sword in as part of a group buy, so any comments made are taken happily and in a constructive manner. We're still rather interested in opinions regarding the hilt decoration, as a fair degree of work has been put into its construction-the bone inset disks are all hand made and finished and the ears of the handle demonstrate a skilled hand. Was this then somebodies attempt to copy the much more ornate 'true' yataghans or is simply a local interpration of such incorporating local style and design? The blade, when held for closer inspection, appears to us no worse than those found on some Indian munition grade tulwars- crude but effective. As for the sword being ill fitting, that was at first our thought, but having played around with it a wee bit, we've come to the conclusion that the parts may have once fitted snuggly and the blade when mounted the correct way round would have made this an effective weapon. These is just what we see close up. Whatever it be, a genuine old fighter or a still vintage pretender, we are glad that its seen the light of day and raised a few eyebrows! thanks again, Here are some pics showing some more detail of the blade. Andy and Karina. Attached Images

24th July 2010, 03:11 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,851	These are some hirschfanger type swords in Vienna in a museum display which have been suggested 'of the type' often carried by pandours. The example on the left has a crossguard which seems reminiscent of the much heavier and workmanlike guard on the example we are discussing. It should be noted of course that the grip is of the familiar European hanger form of the mid 18th century and for quite a number of years later. I would point out that the blade on this example in the Vienna illustration has a very curious clipped point. In Gerhard Seifert's 1962 book, "Schwert Degen Sabel" he has a group of line drawings illustrating blade sections and point types and terminology......there is a tip remarkably like the one on this Vienna sword which carries the term 'pandour point'. There was unfortunately no further material elaborating on the source of the term, but interesting to see of course the pandour term. Actually back in those days, I admit to being among those who had no idea what a pandour was !! Getting back to Andys sword, it would be tempting to connect the guard to being of somewhat that style, however it is far outside the mid 18th century period in my opinion, and far too heavy to be considered of this type. The 'pandour' use of yataghans would likely have been of traditional form, by the foot troops as previously noted, and these did not have guards of course....as noted as well, it is only presumed what kinds of weapons would have been used, but yataghans as far as I know did not have this kind of guard. The hangers used by von Trencks forces, as shown by type in Buttin (1933) were typically of karabela type hilt, and did not have yataghan type blades. There was apparantly a type of yataghan blade, larger and deep bellied, and believed to have been used by cavalry of European auxiliary troops modelled on the pandour units, from later in the 18th century. These swords seem to have had cleft yataghan style hilts of staghorn and were based on many of the hirshfangers of the period. One of these type blades is seen here in an illustration posted by Libra on a concurrent thread with an ivory hilt example but not associated with the units I refer to. The very large deep bellied blade I have seen before on examples that are believed to have been from these European units with troops from Balkan regions. The ones I have seen did not have this kind of wootz blade however, but typically were European made with cyphers and heraldic motif. Looking at Andys example here, by what can be seen photographically, the age seems somewhat in resemblance to artifacts I have seen often while travelling through desert regions here in the southwest, most of which seem to date from about 1870s to 1900. This has the appearance of an item which remained static in an old building or such surrounding in very dry heat for a very long time. There is just enough moisture to bring rust, but intermittant heat to prevent dramatic overtaking of corrosion. That would be about the limit of my forensics skill I personally think it may well be a theatrical item of those times, which though it might sound dismissive, I think these have a certain intrinsic value as period novelty items regardless. A rough piece indeed, but still historic in its own right. ...and surely brought forward some great discussion on the pandours!! All the best, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 24th July 2010 at 03:25 AM.

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23rd July 2010, 02:35 AM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 612	That is an excellent point. To my knowledge there was no uniformed "pandur sword" pattern. I feel that for the sake of posterity it must be stressed that to call a European hunting sword a "Pandur sword" based only on the blade marked VIVAT PANDUR would be erroneous. This was, in my opinion, just a popular hirschfanger and jagdplaute blade inscription in the mid to late 1700s, which possibly and probably originated in Austria.

24th July 2010, 01:43 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A INTERESTING SWORD IT APPEARS TO HAVE SUFFERED FROM EXPOSURE TO THE ELEMENTS FOR QUITE A SPELL. TO ME ITS WEATHERING AND PITTING LOOKS NATURAL NOT CONTRIVED BY MAN. THE BLADE IS TOO FAR GONE TO BE WORTH RESTORATION BUT YOU COULD CONTINUE TO CLEAN THE SECTION AND ETCH TO GET A BETTER IDEA AS TO ITS QUALITY. CLEAN UP THE HANDLE A BIT AND PUT A BIT OF MINERAL OR BABY OIL ON THE HORN AND BONE. THE HORN IS TOO FAR GONE TO RESTORE AND I WOULD JUST LEAVE IT AS IS OTHER THAN REMOVING THE DIRT AND APPLYING SOME OIL. I AM ASSUMING THE DECORATED DISKS ARE BONE AS I DOUBT IVORY COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE NEGLECT AND EXPOSURE THIS SOWRD HAD ENDURED. I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS ARTEFACT GRADE, IF YOU WANT TO DO CARBON DATE OR ANY TESTING DO IT BEFORE APPLYING ANY PRESERVITIVES OR OIL. CLEANING IT UP A BIT AND LOOKING IT OVER CLOSELY WITH GOOD LIGHT AND MAGNIFICATION MAY REVEAL SOMETHING TO HELP CONFIRM ITS AGE OR AUTHENCITY. THANKS FOR SHAREING GOOD LUCK

24th July 2010, 01:54 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,420	Whatever this blade be I believe it has suffered the indignity of shoddy workmanship before ever it showed any age . Instincts tell me to look askance at this piece . More emoticons please ...