Thai Kreis? Thai forum Members?

[Nathaniel]

#19
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=19

Originally Posted by Mark

On the use of keris in Thailand, from "Heritage of Thai Culture," Thailand National Museum Fine Arts Department, 1993 (the section on weapons was written by Mrs. Natthapatra Chandavij, who very graciously gave the intrepid Dan Wilke a few hours of her time and the chance to copy her section of the book):

"The Kris was a dagger, or short knife used for and-to-hand fighting. It is supposed that the daggers were originally used by the Dong son people, in the Gulf of Tangkeai, in about the 1st century and were at some point introduced to the Malaysian and Indonesian Peninsula.
There were more than one hundred types of dagger, each with a specific name ... [and she goes on to list a bunch of names].
In general, a dagger blade has two sharp edges, the length of its blade decided by the maker. Sometimes it may be more than 35 cm long, the upper part of the dagger may be about 7 cm broad. The bottom of the hanlde was sometimes decorated with a covering of bronze or other valuable metal with a picture of a giant or garuda, which was believed by the Malaysians to be able to prevent illness, and also show it has supernatural power. When not in use, the dagger was put in a sheath made from high quality wood which was curved and may be decorated with gold or silver.
Daggers were imported and disseminated in Thailand from the south. There has been evidence of daggers here since the Aytthaya period [1350-1767]. King Narai, the Great, gave daggers to his officials to tuck in at the left side of the waist for convenient use. In the Rattankosin period [1768-1910], King Rama V used a dagger as a symbol decorated on the emblem of state." pp. 129-130.

I can't find the more specific reference to the keris-and-sword combo in court dress, but I am still looking.

From this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...Thailand+books

[David]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

#19
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=19



From this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...Thailand+books

Nathaniel, i would personal take this information with a large grain of salt. Firstly i know of no evidence that would place the origins of the keris a s we know it any where near as early as the 1st century. I also think that for the most part the general consensus of opinion is that the keris originated in Jawa and spread outward from there while this passage seems to imply it's origins with the Dong son people in the Gulf of Tangkeai. I have never seen any evidence that supports this theory.

[A. G. Maisey]

The poor old keris.

Everybody wants a piece of him.

Guess that's what happens when you become a Rock Star --- everybody wants to claim you for their own.

Russell Crowe is an Aussie, John Lennon was a Canadian, and Bob Dylan was born in Ireland --- betcha didn't know all that, didja?

The keris originated in the Dong Son Culture?

The Dong Son culture was a bronze age culture that existed from about 1000BC to about the beginning of the Current Era.

Bronze age.

They were skilled bronze casters, and they made little cast bronze daggers with figural hilts, not dissimilar in form to the keris sajen ( keris majapahit).

For a long time many people were inclined to believe that the Modern Keris, that is, the keris in the form that we accept now as a keris, originated from the keris sajen:- they believed that the keris sajen was the earliest form of keris. The principal evidence in support of this theory was the finding of a keris sajen under one of the stupas of the Borobudur.

It is possible that there is a similar concept at work in the fabric that supported the Dong Son bronze age dagger, and that still supports the keris sajen, however, this must at the present time be considered as a separate development.

Rather than the keris sajen giving birth to the modern keris, it is much more likely that the keris sajen came upon the scene later than the keris in its modern form.

All the evidence that has been produced to date places the origin of the keris firmly in the early classical period of Jawa, that is, Central Jawa, pre-1000AD.

The keris in its modern form appears certain to have developed in East Jawa during the period 1000AD to about 1400AD.

During the 14th -15th centuries, the dominant culture in maritime south east Asia was the Majapahit culture. This culture established trade links and political alliances all over S.E.Asia. It is logically probable that given the iconic position of the keris in Majapahit culture, this same culture was primarily responsible for the spread of the keris throughout S.E. Asia.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The poor old keris.

Everybody wants a piece of him.

Guess that's what happens when you become a Rock Star --- everybody wants to claim you for their own.

Russell Crowe is an Aussie, John Lennon was a Canadian, and Bob Dylan was born in Ireland --- betcha didn't know all that, didja?

The keris originated in the Dong Son Culture?

The Dong Son culture was a bronze age culture that existed from about 1000BC to about the beginning of the Current Era.

Bronze age.

They were skilled bronze casters, and they made little cast bronze daggers with figural hilts, not dissimilar in form to the keris sajen ( keris majapahit).

For a long time many people were inclined to believe that the Modern Keris, that is, the keris in the form that we accept now as a keris, originated from the keris sajen:- they believed that the keris sajen was the earliest form of keris. The principal evidence in support of this theory was the finding of a keris sajen under one of the stupas of the Borobudur.

It is possible that there is a similar concept at work in the fabric that supported the Dong Son bronze age dagger, and that still supports the keris sajen, however, this must at the present time be considered as a separate development.

Rather than the keris sajen giving birth to the modern keris, it is much more likely that the keris sajen came upon the scene later than the keris in its modern form.

All the evidence that has been produced to date places the origin of the keris firmly in the early classical period of Jawa, that is, Central Jawa, pre-1000AD.

The keris in its modern form appears certain to have developed in East Jawa during the period 1000AD to about 1400AD.

During the 14th -15th centuries, the dominant culture in maritime south east Asia was the Majapahit culture. This culture established trade links and political alliances all over S.E.Asia. It is logically probable that given the iconic position of the keris in Majapahit culture, this same culture was primarily responsible for the spread of the keris throughout S.E. Asia.

Thanks for the quick history...I definitely need to read more on the histories of SEA in addition to the few counties I primarily collect from....has anyone read Southeast Asian Warfare, 1300-1900 by Michael Charney? It's one that looks interesting...but expensive.

[DAHenkel]

Nakhon Si Thammarat was also ethnically a Malay kingdom although it was a vassal state of Sukhothai and later Ayuthaya and played a key role in subjugating much of Langkasuka to Tai control. Its Malay name was Ligor (pronounced Luh-GORE). Its traditional weapons are very much part of the Malay world including the rare and beautiful parang Pattalung - a weapon I have only seen but do not have pictures of. Its related to the parang Pattani but has a longer handle and is reminiscent of the panabas.

Ethnic Tai are not keris bearing although there are many war prizes in Bangkok today. Just go to the military museum and you will see many kerises there. Many Malays from Pattani were also re-settled in the Ayuthaya region and remain a distinct minority there today. Most are only partially assimilated into the contemporary Thai identity.

The Cham were also reputed to be keris bearing although today no authentic examples have surfaced.

[PenangsangII]

sometimes its not because of "war prizes' alone.... Most Southeast Asians believe in magical properties in many sacred items, keris included....

i would believe the Chief of Police depicted in the photo, bore the keris as "Sipat Kandhel".....

[Laowang]

I can find no clear evidence regarding Khun Phan's ethnic identity (at least in English); given his apparent Buddhist religion, it's likely he was ethnic Thai. However, the cities of Nakhon Si Thammarat (Ligor), Songkhla, and Patani were all ethnically mixed (Thais, Malays, and Chinese), and in that milieu it is likely he would have viewed the keris as an object of magical power, as PenangsangII has suggested.

It seems clear from both scholarly sources (and the opinions of contributors in this forum) that to the degree keris culture exists within the borders of the Thai nation, it exists because of ethnic Malays who are now part of the Thai state. There are, of course, contemporary Thai collectors of keris, just as there are many collectors of keris in this forum who are not ethnic Malays.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by David

Nathaniel, i would personal take this information with a large grain of salt. Firstly i know of no evidence that would place the origins of the keris a s we know it any where near as early as the 1st century. I also think that for the most part the general consensus of opinion is that the keris originated in Jawa and spread outward from there while this passage seems to imply it's origins with the Dong son people in the Gulf of Tangkeai. I have never seen any evidence that supports this theory.

David, I just stumbled upon it when I was looking at some old threads and thought I would share. History is interesting...so many different versions. This is an area I don't know much about. It is all very interesting. Thanks