Mandau pommel representation?

[migueldiaz]

Borneo's ethnolinguistic map:

[migueldiaz]

Some more pics ...

[Mytribalworld]

here some more handles....

[migueldiaz]

mandaukudi, nice set! thanks.

here's some more from the dragon and hornbill book:

[migueldiaz]

another set:

[migueldiaz]

last set:

[migueldiaz]

but wait, there's more ... ok this is really the final

[VANDOO]

THIS IS THE KIND OF POST I LIKE LOTS OF PICTURES OF EXAMPLES AND FORMS AS WELL AS INFORMATION AND IN SOME CASES IDENTIFICATION AS TO TRIBE. THIS MAKES FOR A GOOD REFRENCE FROM WHICH TO LEARN AND TO COMPARE OUR ITEMS TO FOR A POSSIBLE I.D.
I WILL ADD SOME PICTURES I HAVE ON FILE OF VARIOUS AND UNIQUE FORMS. FIRST THE FORM I REFER TO AS FORKED POMMEL FORMS THE ONLY ONE PICTURED SO FAR IN THIS POST WAS I.D. AS KENYAH BUT I HAVE NO IDEA IF THESE WILL BE FROM THE SAME TRIBE.
THERE WILL BE A PICTURE OF TWO HANDLES ONE WOOD AND ONE ANTLER SAID TO BE FROM THE BUSANG. AND ANOTHER PICTURE WITH TWO HANDLES SAID TO BE KAYAN.

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE A FEW MORE UNUSUAL MANDAU HANDLE FORMS FROM THE FILES. FEEL FREE TO PLACE AN I.D. AS TO TRIBE ON ANY YOU CAN.
ONE OF THE HANDLES LOOKS MORE BATAK STYLE BUT HAD A MANDAU BLADE AND THEY WERE IN THE AREA. THE HANDLE WITH SKULLS AND A SNAKE HEAD MAY OR MAY NOT BE DAYAK WORK BUT DID HAVE A MANDAU BLADE AND WAS REPRESENTED AS DAYAK. IT IS UNUSUAL BUT MAY BE A MORE RECENT MADE FOR TOURISTS ITEM OR THE REAL DEAL?. I PERSONALLY THINK ITS LIKELY WW2 OR MORE RECENT. SOME FINE HANDLES ARE STILL CARVED TODAY BUT SOME ARE FROM BALI OR OTHER AREAS NO DOUBT AND WITHOUT PROVENANCE OR THE ITEM IN HAND ITS OFTEN VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL. THESE ARE POSTED BECAUSE THEY ARE UNUSUAL OR FINE WORKMANSHIP OR BOTH.

[VANDOO]

A FEW MORE AND I WILL STOP , ONE HANDLE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN CARVED OUT OF GREEN HORN WHICH IS SOMETIMES SEEN ON OTHER WEAPONS MOSTLY EUROPEAN, PERSIAN AND INDIAN. ONE PICTURE HAS TWO HANDLES ONE BUSANG AND ONE KENYAH.

[asomotif]

Recent addition / example of a hilt with malay/muslim influences / floral motifs

[David]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A FEW MORE AND I WILL STOP , ONE HANDLE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN CARVED OUT OF GREEN HORN WHICH IS SOMETIMES SEEN ON OTHER WEAPONS MOSTLY EUROPEAN, PERSIAN AND INDIAN. ONE PICTURE HAS TWO HANDLES ONE BUSANG AND ONE KENYAH.

Gee Barry, i was going to post one of mine and suddenly there it was in your post. Amazing!

[VANDOO]

SORRY ABOUT THAT DAVID,
THE BAD NEWS IS I BEAT YOU TO IT, THE GOOD NEWS IS YOU OWN ONE THAT I CONSIDER UNUSUAL AND SUPER COOL. CONGRADULATIONS!!
A SECOND PICTURE WITH MORE INFORMATION ON YOUR MANDAU WOULDN'T BE OUT OF PLACE HERE.
I AM ESPECIALLY CURIOUS ABOUT THE HILT THAT APPEARS TO BE GREEN HORN.

[asomotif]

A SECOND PICTURE WITH MORE INFORMATION ON YOUR MANDAU WOULDN'T BE OUT OF PLACE HERE.

And a picture of the blade would be nice to.
This hilt is very unusual. Makes me think of Bayu handles, but the base of the blade does not look Bayu to me.

Best regards,
Willem

[migueldiaz]

More images, from the book Iban Art, by Heppell et al. --

[migueldiaz]

Some more, from the same book ...

[migueldiaz]

Another one, from the same book --

[migueldiaz]

Another set, from same book --

[migueldiaz]

Second to the last, from same book --

[migueldiaz]

Last set from the said book --

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Last set from the said book --

Not To temper the enthousiasme but what suprises me that nobody seems to notiche that a lot of these photo's have been still unther authorslaw..

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Not To temper the enthousiasme but what suprises me that nobody seems to notiche that a lot of these photo's have been still unther authorslaw..

Hello Arjan,

Thanks for the comments.

In case you are referring to the propriety of posting photos from books, copyrighted material can actually be circulated in the Internet and elsewhere under the fair use concept --

Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship ...

In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

- the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

- the nature of the copyrighted work;

- the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

- the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

In my humble opinion thus, the posting of the pics from books in this forum in general, and in this thread in particular, fall under such rule.

This is just my two cents, and hope others can share their opinion, too. And a legal opinion would certainly be most welcome, also, as all of us here for sure are mindful of these things

Best regards.

[kai]

Hello Arjan,

AFAIK, comparing pics for ethnographic (academic) discussions is covered by the "fair use" policy (exempt from copyright).

Regards,
Kai

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Hello Arjan,

Thanks for the comments.

In case you are referring to the propriety of posting photos from books, copyrighted material can actually be circulated in the Internet and elsewhere under the fair use concept --

Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship ...

In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

- the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

- the nature of the copyrighted work;

- the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

- the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

In my humble opinion thus, the posting of the pics from books in this forum in general, and in this thread in particular, fall under such rule.

This is just my two cents, and hope others can share their opinion, too. And a legal opinion would certainly be most welcome, also, as all of us here for sure are mindful of these things

Best regards.

Hi Miguel.

Maybe you are rigth but I think its very close to the laws borders then.
This forum is a public forum and is free to watch for everyone.

The free share is mostly for use in non public areas.

regards, Arjan

[VANDOO]

I PERSONALLY DON'T FEEL GUILTY OR THAT I AM STEALING ANYTHING FROM THE AUTHORS. INDEED IT JUST MAKES ME WISH I COULD OWN ONE OF THESE BOOKS. I HAVE TRIED TO OBTAIN A COPY OF HORNBILL AND DRAGON FOR MANY YEARS NOW AND AS THE PRICE IS NOW OUT OF MY RANGE MUST BE CONTENT TO SEE SUCH PICTURES AS COME UP ON THE FORUM. PERHAPS SOMEDAY THERE WILL BE A REPRINT AT A PRICE THOSE OF US WITH LIMITED CASH CAN AFFORD.
THE DOWN SIDE IS NOW I SEE PICTURES FROM ANOTHER BOOK I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE, I WILL NOW LOOK IT UP TO SEE IF IT IS AVAILABLE AND IN MY PRICE RANGE. SO IN A WAY THIS IS FREE ADVERTIZING FOR THESE BOOKS TO AN AUDIENCE WHO WILL BE LIKELY TO WANT TO BUY THE BOOKS. SO I CONSIDER IT A POSITIVE THING.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Miguel. Maybe you are rigth but I think its very close to the laws borders then. This forum is a public forum and is free to watch for everyone. The free share is mostly for use in non public areas. regards, Arjan

Hello Arjan, thanks for the comments!

And thanks again for bringing up this important topic on copyrighted materials vis-a-vis their sharing publicly.

Setting aside the legalities for the moment, I think one other (and perhaps even more important) aspect is the test of good faith.

Long story short, all of the members in this forum when they cite info or post photos of others' works do so in good faith (that is, without any malice aforethought). Hence we all pass this aspect with flying colors

Back to the technical aspect, and this is just my understanding -- the sharing and use of copyrighted materials under the fair use concept may and usually involve their public broadcasting.

Kindly note please that the use of copyrighted materials under fair use is for "criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship".

Once again, this is just my own interpretation of the principle, as we've actually tackled this point in the past in this forum. Hence I took the time then to study the matter.

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I PERSONALLY DON'T FEEL GUILTY OR THAT I AM STEALING ANYTHING FROM THE AUTHORS. INDEED IT JUST MAKES ME WISH I COULD OWN ONE OF THESE BOOKS. I HAVE TRIED TO OBTAIN A COPY OF HORNBILL AND DRAGON FOR MANY YEARS NOW AND AS THE PRICE IS NOW OUT OF MY RANGE MUST BE CONTENT TO SEE SUCH PICTURES AS COME UP ON THE FORUM. PERHAPS SOMEDAY THERE WILL BE A REPRINT AT A PRICE THOSE OF US WITH LIMITED CASH CAN AFFORD.
THE DOWN SIDE IS NOW I SEE PICTURES FROM ANOTHER BOOK I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE, I WILL NOW LOOK IT UP TO SEE IF IT IS AVAILABLE AND IN MY PRICE RANGE. SO IN A WAY THIS IS FREE ADVERTIZING FOR THESE BOOKS TO AN AUDIENCE WHO WILL BE LIKELY TO WANT TO BUY THE BOOKS. SO I CONSIDER IT A POSITIVE THING.

Vandoo, I think you hit the nail right in the head, once again

Of the four guidelines of fair use, I think the 4th criteria ("the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work") is the most important to the person whose work is being reproduced.

And precisely when portions of an author's work is posted in forums, talked about in blogs, passed along in Facebook, etc., then the potential market increases, and the value per se of the work rises.

So Vandoo, it's the author who should feel guilty if he or she gets free publicity and yet you and I don't get anything out of it

Some day I plan to write a book on Phil. weapons.

And I'd be the happiest person on earth if many people will post pics in forums from my book, or somebody will quote a block of text from the same, among other means of spreading the info that such a book actually exists and it was made by mister so and so

But that's just me, but I have a feeling that other would-be authors would share this sentiment.

Truly this is a very relevant topic, and I personally thank Arjan once again for bringing this up.

Best wishes to all ...

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Hello Arjan, thanks for the comments!

And thanks again for bringing up this important topic on copyrighted materials vis-a-vis their sharing publicly.

Setting aside the legalities for the moment, I think one other (and perhaps even more important) aspect is the test of good faith.

Long story short, all of the members in this forum when they cite info or post photos of others' works do so in good faith (that is, without any malice aforethought). Hence we all pass this aspect with flying colors

Back to the technical aspect, and this is just my understanding -- the sharing and use of copyrighted materials under the fair use concept may and usually involve their public broadcasting.

Kindly note please that the use of copyrighted materials under fair use is for "criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship".

Once again, this is just my own interpretation of the principle, as we've actually tackled this point in the past in this forum. Hence I took the time then to study the matter.

Vandoo, I think you hit the nail right in the head, once again

Of the four guidelines of fair use, I think the 4th criteria ("the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work") is the most important to the person whose work is being reproduced.

And precisely when portions of an author's work is posted in forums, talked about in blogs, passed along in Facebook, etc., then the potential market increases, and the value per se of the work rises.

So Vandoo, it's the author who should feel guilty if he or she gets free publicity and yet you and I don't get anything out of it

Some day I plan to write a book on Phil. weapons.

And I'd be the happiest person on earth if many people will post pics in forums from my book, or somebody will quote a block of text from the same, among other means of spreading the info that such a book actually exists and it was made by mister so and so

But that's just me, but I have a feeling that other would-be authors would share this sentiment.

Truly this is a very relevant topic, and I personally thank Arjan once again for bringing this up.

Best wishes to all ...

Hi Miquel,

The rigth answer in these cases will be anywhere in the mid I think. Copyrigth material is always a grey area and certainly in these modern times its getting at least "old Fashioned"

Of course I believe in the good trust of all forumities but realize also that write a book about a specific subject mostly cost money and slurps an enourmous lot of time.
Funny that just today a bill comes in here from our royal museum for the publication of just 4 photo's and that only cost me 180 euro.
I think the other museum that I contacted will als charge me also something for their pics.

I mostly not childish with sharing info but I don't think we speak about "fair share" if someone pays hunderds of euro's while other just copy and paste ( print)

On the other way its indeed impossible to discuss an object without sharing pics so I think when its a kind of limited use a writer wouldn't care.
But take care that we not list complete bookchapters online, it would temper the authors enthousiasme

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Miquel,

The rigth answer in these cases will be anywhere in the mid I think. Copyrigth material is always a grey area and certainly in these modern times its getting at least "old Fashioned"

Of course I believe in the good trust of all forumities but realize also that write a book about a specific subject mostly cost money and slurps an enourmous lot of time.
Funny that just today a bill comes in here from our royal museum for the publication of just 4 photo's and that only cost me 180 euro.
I think the other museum that I contacted will als charge me also something for their pics.

I mostly not childish with sharing info but I don't think we speak about "fair share" if someone pays hunderds of euro's while other just copy and paste ( print)

On the other way its indeed impossible to discuss an object without sharing pics so I think when its a kind of limited use a writer wouldn't care.
But take care that we not list complete bookchapters online, it would temper the authors enthousiasme

Thanks for the comments, Arjan. And all of your points are well taken!

On another matter, me and my wife plan to go to Spain, perhaps around September. And we plan to visit the Leiden museum to check out the southeast Asian items there. Do they allow photographing of the display?

Also, would there be other Dutch museums aside from Leiden where a good collection of Philippine or Bornean and Indonesian artifacts can be seen?

Thanks in advance and best wishes!

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Thanks for the comments, Arjan. And all of your points are well taken!

On another matter, me and my wife plan to go to Spain, perhaps around September. And we plan to visit the Leiden museum to check out the southeast Asian items there. Do they allow photographing of the display?

Also, would there be other Dutch museums aside from Leiden where a good collection of Philippine or Bornean and Indonesian artifacts can be seen?

Thanks in advance and best wishes!

I believe that you are free to take pics in the museum.

You should see the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam also , but keep in mind that both museums have only highlights in their permanent exebition.
certainly worth to see, but to give an "Mandau example" Leiden show 1 mandau in their permanent exebition and thats not even the most attractive one ( from around 1940 or so and a gift to Tom Harrisson)

The whole exebition however gives a good idea of the total ethnograhpical treasures in Indonesia.

For Phillippine stuff you will not find much, its better to visit the Spanish museums for that.

here the sites: www.tropenmuseum.nl
www.rmv.nl


another small but nice museum is Nusantara in the very nice City of Delft here the site http://www.nusantara-delft.nl/en

[Maurice]

Here a link to my online photo-album of the images I made in the Tropenmuseum some time ago....(not all that sharp, cause it is hard to take sharp pictures in a museum, with the lights and the glass).

http://picasaweb.google.nl/mbloebaum...fgl=true&pli=1#

Arjan is right, not much moro stuff to be seen! :-(
But all the museums mentioned are worth visiting!

Maurice