Sumatra Keris tourist or not?

[David]

Well, as Alan has pointed out this dress form was a legitimate one that was favored my Europeans and so it became associated with them due to their desire to have these elaborate carvings for keris they returned home with. But we would probably be a bit off base to assume that they were always made specifically for Dutch soldiers. And for the most part i think the blades in them were not made for them either. Just old blades they managed to collect and have re-dressed in this form. Because of this i think we see a great deal of variation in the quality of blades we find in this dress, but usually they are not top-notch blades. We also see a wide range in the quality of the dress itself.
Is it not possible that we might find one of these in Madura where it was owned by a Maduran and never meant to be a soldier's souvenir?

[Henk]

David,

Very good question.

The blades where older blades indeed and mostly not top-notch blades. In my opinion and that's why you see them so much here in Holland is that these dresses were purely made for bringback gifts for mainly the Dutch soldiers and other Dutch employees in those days.

In my opinion the Maduran owned keris in their proper maduran dress and not in dress of lower quality wood, that was used for these bringback kerisses.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Henk

David,

Very good question.

The blades where older blades indeed and mostly not top-notch blades. In my opinion and that's why you see them so much here in Holland is that these dresses were purely made for bringback gifts for mainly the Dutch soldiers and other Dutch employees in those days.

In my opinion the Maduran owned keris in their proper maduran dress and not in dress of lower quality wood, that was used for these bringback kerisses.

My answer would be :

look at the extravagant carving of the Donoriko hilts !

If this sheer exuberance in the carver's art can be practiced in this medium then why not in the Wrongkos and Gandars of Madura keris ?

So I would disagree that these were purely "Visitor"
oriented works .

Visitor influenced, perhaps; or was it assimilation into the culture ?

[Henk]

Rick,

There are carved maduran wrongko's en gandars and if i remembered well in a thread about maduran scabbards a wrongko with lying lion is shown.

In that case i completely agree with you. But the keris type we are discussing here are dressed in lesser quality wood which makes quicker carving possible. This quality wouldnt be the choice of a maduran for his kerisblade.

[Marcokeris]

Another carved madura wrongko

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, you're a better man than me.

I simply cannot tell with any certainty the quality of the wood in chregu's scabbard.

What I can see is a reasonably close grained wood that supports a reasonably fine carving pattern, the scabbard is old, but the pattern of the carving has not collapsed; the wood looks as if it has been stained black, but the area on the hilt where it has worn through seems to have a reddish colour, so it is possible that this wood might be sawo, which does have similar grain and support characteristics, if it is sawo, it is not a low quality wood, but quite a respectable wood.

If the wood has not been stained black, it might be sono--- but it doesn't really look like sono---and again, sono is a decent wood.

Since you have been able to detect that this is a low quality wood, could you please tell us how you were able to know this from the photos.

Thanks.

[Henk]

Alan,

That is really to much honor.

As i mentioned before, you couldn't enter an auction house or fleemarket here in Holland without stumbling over these soldier keris. Sometimes just 10 in a box.
If you had a lot of more keris in an auction house 10 to 1 you had 1 or 2 of such keris among them.

It is certainly not detecting the quality of wood from a picture as handling these keris so many times that it is not hard to recognize this kind of keris and recalling the quality of wood on all these keris.
I would be very surprised when the wood of Chregu's scabbard would be of a different wood quality than the scabbards of these type of keris.

On the keris Marcokeris is showing us, i will not give any comment on the scabbard simply because i cann't.

And to be honest, i owned both of these soldier keris shown here by Chregu and Rick in this thread. Sometimes it drove me to madness discovering again a soldier keris among the few keris i bought. Just reselling and hoping it wouldn't take too long before someone was willing to buy it.
I sold them all accept one with a lying lion wrongko. Today i regret i didn't kept such a keris as Chregru is showing. Regrets because i realize more and more the historical period these keris represent. But i'm convinced today or tomorrow i will stumble against such a keris like Chregru's for fish and chips because here in Holland these keris are still considered as the first tourist items brought back by our soldiers.

So Alan, it is not that i am able detecting woodquality from a picture, in that case i would be rich and famous, but the expierence of handling these keris through the years.

[David]

Originally Posted by Henk

As i mentioned before, you couldn't enter an auction house or fleemarket here in Holland without stumbling over these soldier keris. Sometimes just 10 in a box.
If you had a lot of more keris in an auction house 10 to 1 you had 1 or 2 of such keris among them.

It is certainly not detecting the quality of wood from a picture as handling these keris so many times that it is not hard to recognize this kind of keris and recalling the quality of wood on all these keris.
I would be very surprised when the wood of Chregu's scabbard would be of a different wood quality than the scabbards of these type of keris.

And to be honest, i owned both of these soldier keris shown here by Chregu and Rick in this thread. Sometimes it drove me to madness discovering again a soldier keris among the few keris i bought. Just reselling and hoping it wouldn't take too long before someone was willing to buy it.
I sold them all accept one with a lying lion wrongko. Today i regret i didn't kept such a keris as Chregru is showing. Regrets because i realize more and more the historical period these keris represent. But i'm convinced today or tomorrow i will stumble against such a keris like Chregru's for fish and chips because here in Holland these keris are still considered as the first tourist items brought back by our soldiers.

Henk, i must say that over the years i have seen many of these "soldier keris" and like all things keris they come in all different levels of quality. So i do not know how you can possibly make the assumption that the quality of the wood will be the same on every one of this type of dress. Certainly a majority of these keris are going to be in this less quality of wood and execution, but not all. I went back for just a brief search in the archives and dug up a few examples that have been presented in the past by Erik, Alan and Ganja that are all of a much finer quality in both carving and wood than, say, Rick's example (no offense Rick ). I recall once seeing a particularly fine example that surpasses these ones by far, but i haven't come across it in my quick search. So all i can think is that maybe you have just been looking in the wrong boxes at flea markets all these years.

[David]

Originally Posted by Henk

David,

Very good question.

The blades where older blades indeed and mostly not top-notch blades. In my opinion and that's why you see them so much here in Holland is that these dresses were purely made for bringback gifts for mainly the Dutch soldiers and other Dutch employees in those days.

In my opinion the Maduran owned keris in their proper maduran dress and not in dress of lower quality wood, that was used for these bringback kerisses.

Henk, from your last response i fear that you are not understanding my meaning or intention in showing these other higher end dress. I certainly didn't mean to offend, but you will excuse me if i insist that this discussion has nothing to due in particular with being Dutch. I originally wondered whether this form of dress might have also been a traditional dress form before it caught on for returning soldiers. I thought that Alan suggested as much in post first post on this thread. When i asked this you responded "good question", but you response seemed to indict that you believed this is form made purely for Dutch soldiers. If i misunderstood your meaning i do apologize. We are not having a discussion solely about the quality of the wood used in these sheaths, but also the form itself. So i have shown other dress of this type which you now state you wish were the kind soldiers brought back and that your Dutch friends are surprised to see this dress in this quality. Well maybe that means some of these higher quality versions actually were made for Madurans, not soldiers. That is may point. Am i missing something here?
My statement about looking in the wrong boxes at flea markets was punctuated with a wink and a smile. It was meant in jest. I am sorry that you missed the joke.