plese help identify this pamor

nechesh · 29th April 2005, 09:47 PM

Ian, thanks for stepping in with that reminder. Certainly Kiai seems to be trying to put a great deal of words and beliefs into my mouth that certainly are not my own.

I would like to keep this discussion friendly and scholarly and see no need for anyone to get too excitable.
Actually Kaia, rather than denigrate the early Javanese i would put them in the same light as ALL human beings. It seems to me it is the nature of ALL human beings to exaggerate their history and exploits in legend and song. This is true even in "continuous narrative" situations such as the one you claim exists in Jawa. And actually, i would be willing to bet that at least as many Englishmen would be able to tell you about Chapel Perilous and Sir Gawain as Javanese could identify elements of their own mythology. The English certainly spend a lot more school time on their history and legends than we Americans do, but even i as an American am fairly familar with Arthurian legend. I certainly do not claim to know more than you about your own people's legends and myths, but i would be willing to bet that your understanding of such things is the exception rather than the rule because of your intensive study of the keris. I am not so sure that the average man on the streets of Jakarta would have your knowledge of such things.
Just for the record, did the Cihnese monks state that the Javanese they encountered WERE demons, or that they BELIEVED in demons, because i think that the latter statement is probably true, no?
Still i must insist that you keep your statements to me civil and respectful as i have tried to do with you. It is possible to have discussion, debate and even diagreement with out resorting to anger and sarcasm.

29th April 2005, 09:47 PM	#22
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Ian, thanks for stepping in with that reminder. Certainly Kiai seems to be trying to put a great deal of words and beliefs into my mouth that certainly are not my own. I would like to keep this discussion friendly and scholarly and see no need for anyone to get too excitable. Actually Kaia, rather than denigrate the early Javanese i would put them in the same light as ALL human beings. It seems to me it is the nature of ALL human beings to exaggerate their history and exploits in legend and song. This is true even in "continuous narrative" situations such as the one you claim exists in Jawa. And actually, i would be willing to bet that at least as many Englishmen would be able to tell you about Chapel Perilous and Sir Gawain as Javanese could identify elements of their own mythology. The English certainly spend a lot more school time on their history and legends than we Americans do, but even i as an American am fairly familar with Arthurian legend. I certainly do not claim to know more than you about your own people's legends and myths, but i would be willing to bet that your understanding of such things is the exception rather than the rule because of your intensive study of the keris. I am not so sure that the average man on the streets of Jakarta would have your knowledge of such things. Just for the record, did the Cihnese monks state that the Javanese they encountered WERE demons, or that they BELIEVED in demons, because i think that the latter statement is probably true, no? Still i must insist that you keep your statements to me civil and respectful as i have tried to do with you. It is possible to have discussion, debate and even diagreement with out resorting to anger and sarcasm. Last edited by Rick; 29th April 2005 at 10:28 PM.