1730 Rapier or a Victorian 'Copy' .........any ideas?

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2006, 05:44 PM

Hello Katana,
More excellent research! especially with the Toledo made example you have found. The shape of the cup indeed corresponds with the baskets on Spanish patterns of the 19th century in thier regulation cavalry swords. What seems key is the alternating quillon terminals.
I think your observations on the servicability of this weapon are outstanding and suggest that this may have indeed been made for use. With that being the case, and the fact that these cuphilt rapiers had long been out of use by Victorian times, I would return to my earlier suggestion concerning the 'mens club' possibility.
In reviewing some books on duelling ("The Duel:A History of Duelling" , Richard Baldick, 1965; "Dueling:The Cult of Honor in Fin-de-Siecle Germany", Kevin Macaleer, 1994), it becomes clear that these much romanticized affairs of honor indeed have prevailed in degree until recent times. This obviously would have been even more the case in Victorian times, with the almost cliche' mens clubs in a very honor obsessed and chauvinist society.
While the cased sets of duelling pistols from the 18th through the 19th centuries are well known, it seems also well known that the choice of weapons was carefully dictated by code.
Baldick (p.38) notes that, "...after the choice of seconds came the choice of weapons, which on the Continent lay with the offended party or challenger, whereas in the English speaking countries it lay with the offender or challenged party". The author goes on to describe that the duellist with the choice of weapons often enjoyed distinct advantage as obviously he would choose the weapon with which he was most skilled. It is well known that the encased sets of duelling pistols were made specifically for that purpose, and often were keenly designed with ingenious refinements such as the 'hair trigger' and other features that typically enhanced the deadliness of these weapons.
It seems to me that with Victorian preoccupation with chivalry etc. that 'duelling' rapiers might have been made to offer an alternative to the clearly deadly duelling pistols with emphasis on the 'honor and tradition' of the sword. While such specifically intended swords are not described in these books (the only forms described specifically are the German schlagers), it seems plausible that such forms may have existed. Your example certainly seems too well made to have been intended as simply a decoration or even as I have suggested previously, a theatrical sword.

This is simply my revised opinion based entirely of course on speculation, and I would enjoy very much hearing either opposing or supporting views

All the best,
Jim

10th December 2006, 05:44 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,902	Hello Katana, More excellent research! especially with the Toledo made example you have found. The shape of the cup indeed corresponds with the baskets on Spanish patterns of the 19th century in thier regulation cavalry swords. What seems key is the alternating quillon terminals. I think your observations on the servicability of this weapon are outstanding and suggest that this may have indeed been made for use. With that being the case, and the fact that these cuphilt rapiers had long been out of use by Victorian times, I would return to my earlier suggestion concerning the 'mens club' possibility. In reviewing some books on duelling ("The Duel:A History of Duelling" , Richard Baldick, 1965; "Dueling:The Cult of Honor in Fin-de-Siecle Germany", Kevin Macaleer, 1994), it becomes clear that these much romanticized affairs of honor indeed have prevailed in degree until recent times. This obviously would have been even more the case in Victorian times, with the almost cliche' mens clubs in a very honor obsessed and chauvinist society. While the cased sets of duelling pistols from the 18th through the 19th centuries are well known, it seems also well known that the choice of weapons was carefully dictated by code. Baldick (p.38) notes that, "...after the choice of seconds came the choice of weapons, which on the Continent lay with the offended party or challenger, whereas in the English speaking countries it lay with the offender or challenged party". The author goes on to describe that the duellist with the choice of weapons often enjoyed distinct advantage as obviously he would choose the weapon with which he was most skilled. It is well known that the encased sets of duelling pistols were made specifically for that purpose, and often were keenly designed with ingenious refinements such as the 'hair trigger' and other features that typically enhanced the deadliness of these weapons. It seems to me that with Victorian preoccupation with chivalry etc. that 'duelling' rapiers might have been made to offer an alternative to the clearly deadly duelling pistols with emphasis on the 'honor and tradition' of the sword. While such specifically intended swords are not described in these books (the only forms described specifically are the German schlagers), it seems plausible that such forms may have existed. Your example certainly seems too well made to have been intended as simply a decoration or even as I have suggested previously, a theatrical sword. This is simply my revised opinion based entirely of course on speculation, and I would enjoy very much hearing either opposing or supporting views All the best, Jim