The exhibition oriental weapons "The Mortal Beauty" of private collections in Russia,

ariel · 22nd January 2016, 02:24 AM

OK, I am back:-)

I just want to put together some thoughts re. recent Elgood's book about arms & armour at Jaipur Court and how it changes our perception of Indian weapons collections all over the world in general ( our little private oases included, regretfully:-((( ) and Saltykov's contribution in particular.

One of the main ( if not THE MAIN!) theses of the book is the conclusion that many objects traditionally attributed to the 17-18 centuries were in fact made at the end of the 19th century and sold by itinerant vendors to tourists. This thesis is supported by the multiple lines of evidence and seems to be incontestable. The analysis of actual pieces and the points why they should be attributable to the 19th century is more complicated, and I would love to see a separate chapter summarizing distinguishing characteristics in an organized and systematic fashion. Otherwise, I have no doubt that Dr. Elgood himself can date the objects admirably well, but he did not teach me how to repeat the feat:-)

Well...
What was the price of "good" objects made and sold at the end of the 19th?

There are 3 damascened katars ( ##68,70,71) valued Rs 40, 50,and 150.
A bunch of tulwar hilts, similarly damascened , Rs.20-150
Shamshir Shikargah with true damascening, Rs.137
P.23 quotes "...swords, shields, daggers etc. from Agra, prices up to Rs.200"

These prices are in remarkable agreement with Prince Saltykov's acquisition at Lahori bazaar of "....2 metal shields, straight-bladed sword ( khanda?) and two curved daggers for a total of Rs.750..."

It seems likely that Saltykov bought cheap and newly-made objects: compare with #95, Afghani or Sindhi sword belonging to Mir Ibrahim ( Rs. 3,095),steel shield from Alwar armoury ( see #118) bought in 1830 for Rs. 1000, 2 swords presented by Aurangzeb to Raja Ram Singh ( Rs.2,000 and 3,000 respectively) or Ranjit Singh's sword at Rs. 10,000, half of which was for the blade alone. This were likely the "high-end" weapons he encountered at the Lahore Court and dismissed as having "no taste" ( or something like that.) Instead he went to the bazaar with predictable consequences...

In the book by Obraztsov about Oriental arms and armour in the Hermitage Museum I was able to find a single Indian example from the "Saltykov Collection": a lavishly damascened metal shield with no evidence of wear and tear , but with multiple forging defects, cracks masked by golden decorations. I wonder whether it could have been acquired in Lahore as part of the Rs.750 deal...

All his stuff ended in the Hermitage Museum and it might be interesting for the Museum poobahs to ask Dr. Elgood to re-evaluate Saltykov Collection: it may consist largely of late 19th century objects made for "those who travel" :-)

The same may apply to other major museums, especially if the date of acquisition is " second half of the 19th century" .

Elgood attributes quite a few objects in the Jaipur Armory to the same group, but I do not think that local Rajah were victims of deception: they themselves happily redecorated their new acquisitions, were more familiar with bazaar practices and ... well, an attempt to swindle an Indian Raja was rather dangerous for one's health:-)

On the other hand, tourists ( like Saltykov) or British officers and administrators were very legitimate targets.The wealth was thus redistributed in accordance with Karl Marx slogan " Exploit the exploiters!"

Personally, I am surely glad for not having lavishly adorned, damascened and artistically-decorated Indian swords:-)))

22nd January 2016, 02:24 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, I am back:-) I just want to put together some thoughts re. recent Elgood's book about arms & armour at Jaipur Court and how it changes our perception of Indian weapons collections all over the world in general ( our little private oases included, regretfully:-((( ) and Saltykov's contribution in particular. One of the main ( if not THE MAIN!) theses of the book is the conclusion that many objects traditionally attributed to the 17-18 centuries were in fact made at the end of the 19th century and sold by itinerant vendors to tourists. This thesis is supported by the multiple lines of evidence and seems to be incontestable. The analysis of actual pieces and the points why they should be attributable to the 19th century is more complicated, and I would love to see a separate chapter summarizing distinguishing characteristics in an organized and systematic fashion. Otherwise, I have no doubt that Dr. Elgood himself can date the objects admirably well, but he did not teach me how to repeat the feat:-) Well... What was the price of "good" objects made and sold at the end of the 19th? There are 3 damascened katars ( ##68,70,71) valued Rs 40, 50,and 150. A bunch of tulwar hilts, similarly damascened , Rs.20-150 Shamshir Shikargah with true damascening, Rs.137 P.23 quotes "...swords, shields, daggers etc. from Agra, prices up to Rs.200" These prices are in remarkable agreement with Prince Saltykov's acquisition at Lahori bazaar of "....2 metal shields, straight-bladed sword ( khanda?) and two curved daggers for a total of Rs.750..." It seems likely that Saltykov bought cheap and newly-made objects: compare with #95, Afghani or Sindhi sword belonging to Mir Ibrahim ( Rs. 3,095),steel shield from Alwar armoury ( see #118) bought in 1830 for Rs. 1000, 2 swords presented by Aurangzeb to Raja Ram Singh ( Rs.2,000 and 3,000 respectively) or Ranjit Singh's sword at Rs. 10,000, half of which was for the blade alone. This were likely the "high-end" weapons he encountered at the Lahore Court and dismissed as having "no taste" ( or something like that.) Instead he went to the bazaar with predictable consequences... In the book by Obraztsov about Oriental arms and armour in the Hermitage Museum I was able to find a single Indian example from the "Saltykov Collection": a lavishly damascened metal shield with no evidence of wear and tear , but with multiple forging defects, cracks masked by golden decorations. I wonder whether it could have been acquired in Lahore as part of the Rs.750 deal... All his stuff ended in the Hermitage Museum and it might be interesting for the Museum poobahs to ask Dr. Elgood to re-evaluate Saltykov Collection: it may consist largely of late 19th century objects made for "those who travel" :-) The same may apply to other major museums, especially if the date of acquisition is " second half of the 19th century" . Elgood attributes quite a few objects in the Jaipur Armory to the same group, but I do not think that local Rajah were victims of deception: they themselves happily redecorated their new acquisitions, were more familiar with bazaar practices and ... well, an attempt to swindle an Indian Raja was rather dangerous for one's health:-) On the other hand, tourists ( like Saltykov) or British officers and administrators were very legitimate targets.The wealth was thus redistributed in accordance with Karl Marx slogan " Exploit the exploiters!" Personally, I am surely glad for not having lavishly adorned, damascened and artistically-decorated Indian swords:-))) Last edited by ariel; 22nd January 2016 at 11:19 AM.