Weapons grade Javanese kerises

Jussi M. · 23rd November 2009, 08:15 PM

Greetings,

if I have understood correctly, for the most part of the last couple hundred years the kerises in Java have not been made so much with the actual possible usage in combat in mind but weighting other aspects much talked about here.

Because of this - if I am not mistaken - most Javanese contemporary kerises do not have been heat treated to have the resilience and other attributes that a weapons grade blade heat treated for such a usage in mind would posses.

I would kindly ask for those on the forum that have "weapons grade" Javanese kerises to share us some insight on their respective ages and other information on the matter. - For example insight on when did the heat treatment of "weapons grade" kerises halted in Java.

Please - if I have presented here something that is not true correct me - I do not want to spread false information due to my own ignorance.

Thanks,

J.

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2009, 12:17 AM

What you've laid out is pretty much as things are, in my understanding.

I tend to avoid the use of the word "combat" associated with keris, because I feel that with many native speakers of English "combat" conjures up mental visions of associations with war, and I don't think that that is really a very accurate portrayal of the role of the keris. Perhaps we could refer to these "combat" keris as you yourself have done, as "weapon grade keris".

I think it is probably true to say that most current era Javanese and Madurese keris are not heat treated. The heat treat only consists of quenching with a keris, so it doesn't help resilience at all, quite the contrary, but it does allow the quenched part of the blade to hold a sharp edge for longer than an unquenched blade would do.

I do not believe it is possible to give you a definitive answer as to when the general practice of heat treatment of keris on Jawa came to an end. It can still occur in the case of a privately ordered keris. The price charged for that keris will be a lot higher than for an unquenched blade, usually at least double and this will multiply when the pamor is a complex one, because there is the risk that an unseen flaw could cause the weld joints to open up when the blade is quenched, and it will need to be made again.

I think it might be possible to say that generally speaking most keris made prior to WWII were heat treated, and most keris made after WWII were not heat treated. That's about as definitive as I'd like to get.

drdavid · 25th November 2009, 08:22 AM

Hi Alan, would the quenching occur full length both edges or only a smaller area of the keris
david

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2009, 08:44 AM

No, the full length of a blade is never heat treated. In a Javanese keris the length of blade subjected to heat treatment varies from only the first couple of inches through to a point just below the poyuhan --- or where the poyuhan would be if a keris does not have a sogokan.

Jussi M. · 25th November 2009, 01:51 PM

Thanks Alan,

Jussi

fearn · 25th November 2009, 05:23 PM

Hi Alan,

Ignorant question, but wouldn't heat treating a keris potentially induce fractures, because the different metals in the pamor expand at different rates?

Best,

F

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2009, 10:58 PM

If the welds are good there is no problem. I've heat treated a lot of mechanical damascus blades using various ferric materials, as well as ferric material + nickel. I've heat treated keris blades using the same types of materials, I've heat treated one keris blade and a number of knife blades that used meteoritic material, and the only failures in weld joints I've ever had were two or three very early blades I made when I was still learning.

If the weld is good there is no problem with a heat treat.

23rd November 2009, 08:15 PM	#1
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Weapons grade Javanese kerises Greetings, if I have understood correctly, for the most part of the last couple hundred years the kerises in Java have not been made so much with the actual possible usage in combat in mind but weighting other aspects much talked about here. Because of this - if I am not mistaken - most Javanese contemporary kerises do not have been heat treated to have the resilience and other attributes that a weapons grade blade heat treated for such a usage in mind would posses. I would kindly ask for those on the forum that have "weapons grade" Javanese kerises to share us some insight on their respective ages and other information on the matter. - For example insight on when did the heat treatment of "weapons grade" kerises halted in Java. Please - if I have presented here something that is not true correct me - I do not want to spread false information due to my own ignorance. Thanks, J.

25th November 2009, 12:17 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	What you've laid out is pretty much as things are, in my understanding. I tend to avoid the use of the word "combat" associated with keris, because I feel that with many native speakers of English "combat" conjures up mental visions of associations with war, and I don't think that that is really a very accurate portrayal of the role of the keris. Perhaps we could refer to these "combat" keris as you yourself have done, as "weapon grade keris". I think it is probably true to say that most current era Javanese and Madurese keris are not heat treated. The heat treat only consists of quenching with a keris, so it doesn't help resilience at all, quite the contrary, but it does allow the quenched part of the blade to hold a sharp edge for longer than an unquenched blade would do. I do not believe it is possible to give you a definitive answer as to when the general practice of heat treatment of keris on Jawa came to an end. It can still occur in the case of a privately ordered keris. The price charged for that keris will be a lot higher than for an unquenched blade, usually at least double and this will multiply when the pamor is a complex one, because there is the risk that an unseen flaw could cause the weld joints to open up when the blade is quenched, and it will need to be made again. I think it might be possible to say that generally speaking most keris made prior to WWII were heat treated, and most keris made after WWII were not heat treated. That's about as definitive as I'd like to get.

25th November 2009, 08:22 AM	#3
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Hi Alan, would the quenching occur full length both edges or only a smaller area of the keris david

25th November 2009, 08:44 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	No, the full length of a blade is never heat treated. In a Javanese keris the length of blade subjected to heat treatment varies from only the first couple of inches through to a point just below the poyuhan --- or where the poyuhan would be if a keris does not have a sogokan.

25th November 2009, 01:51 PM	#5
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Thanks Alan, Jussi

25th November 2009, 05:23 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Alan, Ignorant question, but wouldn't heat treating a keris potentially induce fractures, because the different metals in the pamor expand at different rates? Best, F

25th November 2009, 10:58 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	If the welds are good there is no problem. I've heat treated a lot of mechanical damascus blades using various ferric materials, as well as ferric material + nickel. I've heat treated keris blades using the same types of materials, I've heat treated one keris blade and a number of knife blades that used meteoritic material, and the only failures in weld joints I've ever had were two or three very early blades I made when I was still learning. If the weld is good there is no problem with a heat treat.