Information request about pamor type

[kulbuntet]

Hi all,

I have request to the persons that know about pamor Pantjing klina.

What does it mean, how does it look like, were is it for? and all other info that is posible about it. I can't find anny on the net. So If anny one can post it here, its apriciated

Regards Michel

[A. G. Maisey]

pantjing = pancing = a fishing rod or hook (mancing = fishing)

kelina = kalima = fifth

Never heard of this pamor, don't know what it looks like, don't know anything about it.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

From what I can recall, the correct name is: Pantjing Keling (fishing-line for catching a type of coral fish).
It is represented by one line along the length of the blade, with a break along it which curves in the shape of a dangling fish-hook.

Perhaps someone more familiar with Djawa mysticism/pamor may correct me or elucidate further.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

I do not know "keling" as any type of fish. I've just checked with two native speakers of Javanese, both from East Jawa, and they do not know it as a type of fish.

I know the word as meaning sadness or difficulty, and I have just been informed that it also means something to do with South India --- maybe a term used to refer to people from South India, and a rivet, and a type of cake.

Tammens does not mention it, neither does Zazuli, and in a limited search of both Haryoguritno and Harsrinuksmo it does not appear.

Do we know where this name is used? What society does it come from?

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Or perhaps, Kantjing Kulina (kancing kulina. kancing=button of garment (Bahasa) or key/padlock (Java). kulina (jav)=something ones do often so it becomes a habit and gain proficiency).

I think I've read it somewhere, but I'm not sure. As I recall, it is a 'tiban' pamor, bull-eyes shaped (several consentic circles), at specific place in keris blade.

I've never heard about Pantjing Klina, Kalima or Keling

Please remind, I have a very short memory.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

'Koelina' in Djawa Koeno is borrowed from Sanskrit and pertains to someone who is 'high-born'.
So, the pamor name could be: Pantjingan Koelina, meaning fishing-line for the 'high-born'.

On the other hand, Keling=lele=walking-catfish (Clarias Punctatus). (Keling refers to the catfish's dark skin, which is the common colour. As Alan has already pointed out, Keling originally referred to dark-skinned people from Kalinga in southern India). So: Pantjing Keling simply means fishing line to catch catfish.

Given my description of the pamor, both are plausible.
But, I still opt for the second name.

Apologies for any mistakes.

Best,

[A. G. Maisey]

I really feel that we're getting a wee bit too speculative here.

Kulbuntet has given the name as pantjing klina, if we bring that into modern spelling it becomes pancing kelina.

Seems none of us have ever heard of pancing kelina.

Amuk Murugul suggests pancing keling.

I've checked further on keling --- wife has come home from the arisan --- and it appears there is an iwak keling, but she doesn't know what sort of fish it is, she only recognises the name.

So pancing keling might be valid.

I suggest we wait until Kulbuntet joins us again and tells us where he got the name from and the circumstances surrounding it. Even though we might have established a logical name, none of the references I've checked lists this pamor, and I myself have never heard of it.

I doubt that it is wise to go into Old Javanese. Pancing does occur in Old Javanese, and so does keling, but in Old Javanese Keling seems to be an alternate name for the Kingdom of Majapahit. Whilst kulina can refer to somebody of aristocratic descent, depending on context it can also refer to an ordinary village person; it seems there is a possibility kulina is in fact the root of kuli.

Amuk Murugul, you seem to be familiar with pamor pancing keling, may I ask from where do you know it? Before writing this post I rang a good friend in Solo who knows vastly more than I do --- in fact he knows vastly more than almost everybody --- and asked him if he knew this pamor, seems he hasn't heard of it either.

[kulbuntet]

Hi All,

Thank you all for replie on my question. The pamor i mentioned is described by H.A. van Hien, Author of DE JAVAANSCHE GEESTENWERELD Vol. 1 & 2... The Javanese spirt/ghost world Vol 1 and 2. Het described the pamor in one of his other works, translating old javanese books/manuscripts and so on to dutch.. Im stil looking for the works. A friend of my has read it once, and the links the pamor name pantjing klina to one of my keris, witch i do not know the pamor name. He tells me that there are only 2 keris made with this very exlusive high status pamor. He has seen the other one, witch is a realy high ranking pusaka.

Here some pics of the wilah mentioned. At first i thought it was Lintang kemukus, but he told me it isn't. looking to the other high pusaka, it could not be otherwise. Btw he almost jumpt trough the ceiling when i showed him this keris/





regards

*Edit* I personaly think it is posible that the propper name is Pantjingan Koelina as in the post of Amuk Murugul. Iff we look at the meaning, fishing-line for the 'high-born' and to the pamor on the pics and what my frined told me. But what is the tuah of the pamor? and can some one tel me more about it? A other friend of me, the one that learn me washing keris, also told me it is a high pusaka keris, with posible tanguh jengala/pajajeran or older. he also told me that only 2 of them exist.

[A. G. Maisey]

This is a scarce pamor, but as to there only being two examples in existence, well, I don't think so. Going back 15 or 20 years I sold a pedang with this pamor, and I have seen a keris with this pamor, but I cannot remember where.

It is always quite difficult to give a justifiable opinion of tangguh from photographs, and the photos of this keris blade are not particularly clear, however, there are a number of indicators that would cause me to question its attribution to Jenggala , or to Pajajaran. Based upon what I can see in the photo --- let me stress that:- upon what I can see in the photo --- I would place this blade as having considerably less age than a tangguh of Jenggala or Pajajaran would give it.

I cannot find an illustration of this pamor and I do not know what its name should be. In such cases probably the only person who ever truly knew its name was the maker, or perhaps its first owner. Since it is an unlisted pamor it is a little difficult to quote an accepted tuah for it.

However, since it would clearly please some of us to know it as an aristocrat's fishing rod, and it being very well documented that a major measure of power, spiritual excellence, and earthly success for the aristocrats of old Jawa, and in fact, not so old Jawa, was the number of female conquests that they could claim, I would suggest that it is probable that its tuah is related to the unfailing ability to beguile nubile women.

I offer in support of this supposition the clearly phallic nature of this motif. I would further suggest that it is obviously not a pamor that is suitable for any man of advanced years, as the physical and mental stress that all those nubile women would create could well see an older man's demise. This pamor is undoubtedly suited to a wealthy young man who works out, doesn't use steriods, and drives a Maserati.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I offer in support of this supposition the clearly phallic nature of this motif. I would further suggest that it is obviously not a pamor that is suitable for any man of advanced years, as the physical and mental stress that all those nubile women would create could well see an older man's demise. This pamor is undoubtedly suited to a wealthy young man who works out, doesn't use steriods, and drives a Maserati.

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I would suggest that it is probable that its tuah is related to the unfailing ability to beguile nubile women.

I offer in support of this supposition the clearly phallic nature of this motif. I would further suggest that it is obviously not a pamor that is suitable for any man of advanced years, as the physical and mental stress that all those nubile women would create could well see an older man's demise. This pamor is undoubtedly suited to a wealthy young man who works out, doesn't use steriods, and drives a Maserati.

it is in the right hands

[A. G. Maisey]

If we examine the way in which this pamor has been made, there is another way in which we could interpret this pamor.

Compare it with the pamor kul buntet --- not the Forumite Kulbuntet, but the pamor of the same name.

This pamor is obviously a kulbuntet that has come unravelled.

Kulbuntet is a royal pamor, and again, one that is distinctly positive in respect of nubile young women.

Possibly this "Aristocrat's Rod" pamor is indicative of what happens to an aging aristocrat after a lifetime of overindulgence of his kulbuntet:- everything starts to unravel.

Maybe its not a particularly positive pamor after all, perhaps that's why there are not many of them around and its not listed anywhere.

[David]

Well, i must admit that what ever it's tuah i find this keris extremely attractive. I hope that doesn't speak poorly of me, my age or my condition.

[Rick]

" She reeled when she saw my rod ."







( old fishing joke , couldn't resist. )